Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The New Druid
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 4737456" data-attributes="member: 53980"><p>No, you were clear. I think it was actually myself who was not as clear as I could have been. I am/was aware that you aren't/weren't associating yourself with a "camp", and a lot of my previous post (as well as this one) wasn't directed at you specifically, but rather at the views you mentioned.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, I completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I've met players like this before.</p><p></p><p>Them- "Jeez, this RPG doesn't automatically kill the enemy? What a piece of junk!"</p><p>Me- "Ummm... it does five times the damage of the best gun, as an aoe no less... how the heck do you conclude it's a piece of junk?"</p><p>Them- "Well in the real world if you get hit with a rocket propelled grenade you're dead..."</p><p>Me- "You're aware that this is a game, right?"</p><p></p><p>I just can't fathom the thought process that if something isn't auto-win then it's worthless. I can understand the viewpoint that it <em>isn't as good</em> as an auto-win, but <em>worthless</em>? <em>Really?</em> I guess I just can't see how having an insta-disguise up your sleeve anytime you need it can be construed by anyone as worthless.</p><p></p><p>Honestly, I can understand where the other camp is coming from because we used to play that way in 3.x. 4e, however, is a very different game and as we've seen time and time again on these forums, if you can't adapt your assumptions to the new dynamic then you are not going to get on well with the new edition. That isn't to say that people who like the dynamic of 3.x are badwrongfun or any such thing. It is, however, <em>different</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Believe it or not, I do understand that. However, the OP was attempting to house rule a fix to Wild Shape by delaying it's acquistion until 11th level. </p><p></p><p>Meaning no offense to the OP, but I consider that a bad fix because it removes what makes the druid a dynamic class from levels 1-10 (which IMO will make the class boring to play for those levels). Come 11th level the druid gains Wild Shape and, assuming Wild Shape was to be this druid's intended focus, now has to begin the tedious task of retraining the last 10 levels of powers. Essentially, this druid will be epic level before he can play the class according to his original character concept. I have to ask how that could be beneficial to the game?</p><p></p><p>"Auto-win" Wild Shape is still going to be a problem come level 11 because 4e has pretty much killed the "auto-win" concept, and bringing it back in this case is not going to help the game's balance any (does the druid only marginalizing the Rogue's scouting role <em>after</em> 10th level makes it so much better?). </p><p></p><p>I still hold that this "camp" is better served by making Wild Shape appear lycanthropic in nature. It doesn't mess with the class balance at all, but eliminates the abuse of "auto-win" Wild Shape scouting and the like.</p><p></p><p>Limiting it to combat is technically possible, but it's kind of a weird mechanic (why is Wild Shape only usable in combat?) and it eliminates some of the interesting non-combat utility powers (Skittering Sneak).</p><p></p><p>I don't see how limiting Wild Shape to a 5 minute duration would help at all. It's an at-will power. What's to keep a druid from hiding before he reaches the 5 minute mark, then shifting out and shifting back in? Sure it's a bit cheesy, but what do you expect if you grant a power with unlimited uses that lasts 5 minutes? All you've done is replaced a periodic Bluff check to "avoid suspicion" with a periodic Stealth check to "reapply auto-win cheese".</p><p></p><p>Hence, why I responded with the house rule creation guidelines as I did. I saw your point. The other camp can run their Wild Shape however they want; it's their game. However, I felt it important to point out that the OP's proposed house rule would not fix the perceived problem; it would only delay it and creates additional problems as well.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 4737456, member: 53980"] No, you were clear. I think it was actually myself who was not as clear as I could have been. I am/was aware that you aren't/weren't associating yourself with a "camp", and a lot of my previous post (as well as this one) wasn't directed at you specifically, but rather at the views you mentioned. Actually, I completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I've met players like this before. Them- "Jeez, this RPG doesn't automatically kill the enemy? What a piece of junk!" Me- "Ummm... it does five times the damage of the best gun, as an aoe no less... how the heck do you conclude it's a piece of junk?" Them- "Well in the real world if you get hit with a rocket propelled grenade you're dead..." Me- "You're aware that this is a game, right?" I just can't fathom the thought process that if something isn't auto-win then it's worthless. I can understand the viewpoint that it [i]isn't as good[/i] as an auto-win, but [i]worthless[/i]? [i]Really?[/i] I guess I just can't see how having an insta-disguise up your sleeve anytime you need it can be construed by anyone as worthless. Honestly, I can understand where the other camp is coming from because we used to play that way in 3.x. 4e, however, is a very different game and as we've seen time and time again on these forums, if you can't adapt your assumptions to the new dynamic then you are not going to get on well with the new edition. That isn't to say that people who like the dynamic of 3.x are badwrongfun or any such thing. It is, however, [i]different[/i]. Believe it or not, I do understand that. However, the OP was attempting to house rule a fix to Wild Shape by delaying it's acquistion until 11th level. Meaning no offense to the OP, but I consider that a bad fix because it removes what makes the druid a dynamic class from levels 1-10 (which IMO will make the class boring to play for those levels). Come 11th level the druid gains Wild Shape and, assuming Wild Shape was to be this druid's intended focus, now has to begin the tedious task of retraining the last 10 levels of powers. Essentially, this druid will be epic level before he can play the class according to his original character concept. I have to ask how that could be beneficial to the game? "Auto-win" Wild Shape is still going to be a problem come level 11 because 4e has pretty much killed the "auto-win" concept, and bringing it back in this case is not going to help the game's balance any (does the druid only marginalizing the Rogue's scouting role [i]after[/i] 10th level makes it so much better?). I still hold that this "camp" is better served by making Wild Shape appear lycanthropic in nature. It doesn't mess with the class balance at all, but eliminates the abuse of "auto-win" Wild Shape scouting and the like. Limiting it to combat is technically possible, but it's kind of a weird mechanic (why is Wild Shape only usable in combat?) and it eliminates some of the interesting non-combat utility powers (Skittering Sneak). I don't see how limiting Wild Shape to a 5 minute duration would help at all. It's an at-will power. What's to keep a druid from hiding before he reaches the 5 minute mark, then shifting out and shifting back in? Sure it's a bit cheesy, but what do you expect if you grant a power with unlimited uses that lasts 5 minutes? All you've done is replaced a periodic Bluff check to "avoid suspicion" with a periodic Stealth check to "reapply auto-win cheese". Hence, why I responded with the house rule creation guidelines as I did. I saw your point. The other camp can run their Wild Shape however they want; it's their game. However, I felt it important to point out that the OP's proposed house rule would not fix the perceived problem; it would only delay it and creates additional problems as well. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
The New Druid
Top