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The New Druid
- Thread starter StAlda
- Start date
CapnZapp
Legend
No, I do not think it's just you.
I believe Siberys answer you purely from the combat perspective, which is all too common among 4E players (because it's actively promoted by the game's publisher).
Out of combat, this power would let you sneak around hidden in a way that few people would question (certainly in a forest - less so in a city).
But the thing is that no powers are assumed to be usable outside of combat. (Except for rituals or when the text specifically overrides this)
That is, all the descriptive text about Druids preferring to stay in beast form is just fluff.
If you assume the Druid is human except for short intervals of time during combat, you'll find the ability to be balanced for a level 1 character.
I believe Siberys answer you purely from the combat perspective, which is all too common among 4E players (because it's actively promoted by the game's publisher).
Out of combat, this power would let you sneak around hidden in a way that few people would question (certainly in a forest - less so in a city).
But the thing is that no powers are assumed to be usable outside of combat. (Except for rituals or when the text specifically overrides this)
That is, all the descriptive text about Druids preferring to stay in beast form is just fluff.
If you assume the Druid is human except for short intervals of time during combat, you'll find the ability to be balanced for a level 1 character.
Siberys
Adventurer
Well, if you do that, keep in mind that half of the available druid powers will be useless for the first ten levels.
Also, in regards to only focusing on the combat aspect; Well, yeah. The RPing rules in D&D are so much more freeform that I usually figure one can ignore talking about balance in such situations.
Outside of combat, though, this is only OP if you let it be. At most it's a +2 bonus to a skill check (Yay DM's best friend!). If the druid wanted people to think they actually WERE an animal, I'd probably call for a bluff check. And they'd have to stay Medium, as per the power, so no "squirrel scouting".
Basically, you're hitting the Druid with the nerf-bat, and HARD. Not that that's not your prerogative - to each his own. But I just think that you could restrict the Out-of-combat shapeshifting ability without affecting the druid's in-combat capabilities. One solution would be to say that, until whatever you consider a reasonable level, wild-shaping is not a COMPLETE transformation, but only partial - kinda like that druid variant in the 3.5 PHBII.
Also, in regards to only focusing on the combat aspect; Well, yeah. The RPing rules in D&D are so much more freeform that I usually figure one can ignore talking about balance in such situations.
Outside of combat, though, this is only OP if you let it be. At most it's a +2 bonus to a skill check (Yay DM's best friend!). If the druid wanted people to think they actually WERE an animal, I'd probably call for a bluff check. And they'd have to stay Medium, as per the power, so no "squirrel scouting".
Basically, you're hitting the Druid with the nerf-bat, and HARD. Not that that's not your prerogative - to each his own. But I just think that you could restrict the Out-of-combat shapeshifting ability without affecting the druid's in-combat capabilities. One solution would be to say that, until whatever you consider a reasonable level, wild-shaping is not a COMPLETE transformation, but only partial - kinda like that druid variant in the 3.5 PHBII.
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Hjorimir
Adventurer
Do you have a page reference for this? I'd like to read up on it.
I disagree completely on the nerf-bat. There is so much material to prop up the poor tree hugger with self image issues.
Druids with totems? Shaman -yes, barbarian - yes, druids - huh? What happened to mistletoe, silver sickles, groves. The entire player's handbook 2 only mentions "grove" once - for the WARDEN!?
A 2nd level druid is the perfect assassin, wild shape to a rat/mouse, infiltrate, plant poison, leave.
Maybe spread some plague too.
Ok, done ranting.
Druids with totems? Shaman -yes, barbarian - yes, druids - huh? What happened to mistletoe, silver sickles, groves. The entire player's handbook 2 only mentions "grove" once - for the WARDEN!?
A 2nd level druid is the perfect assassin, wild shape to a rat/mouse, infiltrate, plant poison, leave.
Maybe spread some plague too.
Ok, done ranting.
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Daelkyr
First Post
Firstly, it seems that the comments about 1st edition and mistletoe/silver sickles/groves seem to be a longing for 4th edition to more closely hew to what has been flavor text from the past editions. In this respect, I agree with the sentiment. I don't feel they needed to change as much in flavor and background to mesh with the new mechanics of the game.
Secondly, wild shape allows you to assume the form of a beast. more specifically, it allows you to assume a form that resembles a natural or fey beast of your size. It then provides examples of typical mammalian four-legged predators. Next, it gives the alternate flavor of assuming indistinct, shadowy features of animals in a shamanic mask style effect. Either choice is a matter of flavor because it states "You choose a specific form whenever you use wild shape, and that form has no effect on your ame
statistics or movement modes."
The Wild Shape power entry states in part:
"You choose a specific form whenever you use wild shape to change into beast form. The beast form is your size, resembles a natural beast or a fey beast, and normally doesn’t change your game statistics or movement modes."
So, 2nd level druids will have a slight problem. They will not be able to wild shape into a rat. Dire rat - yes (if they are medium size). Giant rat - yes (if they are small size). Rat rat - no. Smaller than small, so no dice. Still, a small dog might be overlooked. But they don't have access to the Thievery skill or the stealth skill, so you'll need to spend two feats or play eladrin and one feat to have access to the training in them.
The the 2nd level halfling/gnome druid will wild shape into giant rat or a small dog to avoid suspicion. Make skill checks for stealth (and possibly thievery) to gain access, and then wild shape back into a gnome/halfling to plant the poision (possibly requiring other skill checks). Finally, wild shape back into beast form and escape. All in all, sounds like a great skill challenge. I would love to see it in play with the rest of the party attempting another skill challenge/combat at the same time.
Lastly, sad rat example wouldn't allow plague as that would change game statistics by giving you a disease power for free. So that wouldn't work.
Siberys
Adventurer
For the Mistletoe / etc.; Just say that's what your totem looks like. Done! Your druid now has Mistletoe as a power-focus!
As for skittering sneak; The power lasts until the end of the encounter (so about five minutes), You're STILL the size of a cat, you only gain a +5 bonus to stealth, AND you can't attack, pick up items, or manipulate objects. Hardly "The Perfect Assassin". Seems about right for a 2nd level daily power, though.
My point is, at heroic tier, there are 17 beast form powers (approx. 1/2 the powers for heroic tier). Those would be useless under your houserule until 11th level, and even then it will be of severely limited utility due to the action cost you'd be assigning it. Additionally, there are several powers (like skittering sneak) that are not themselves beast form powers, but which still interact with WS.
Basically, you'd be messing with the combat effectiveness of the class to bring its flavor in line with what you think it should be. I think you can bring the flavor into line without limiting the druid in combat so much, 's'all. Crunch and fluff are two separate entities in 4e; You can fiddle with one without touching the other.
As for skittering sneak; The power lasts until the end of the encounter (so about five minutes), You're STILL the size of a cat, you only gain a +5 bonus to stealth, AND you can't attack, pick up items, or manipulate objects. Hardly "The Perfect Assassin". Seems about right for a 2nd level daily power, though.
My point is, at heroic tier, there are 17 beast form powers (approx. 1/2 the powers for heroic tier). Those would be useless under your houserule until 11th level, and even then it will be of severely limited utility due to the action cost you'd be assigning it. Additionally, there are several powers (like skittering sneak) that are not themselves beast form powers, but which still interact with WS.
Basically, you'd be messing with the combat effectiveness of the class to bring its flavor in line with what you think it should be. I think you can bring the flavor into line without limiting the druid in combat so much, 's'all. Crunch and fluff are two separate entities in 4e; You can fiddle with one without touching the other.
CapnZapp
Legend
I'll do my best.
Believe it or not, but this is 4E's rule on powers:
"Unless otherwise noted, a power is instantaneous and has no lasting effect."
--PHB, "Durations" section, page 278.
Hardly satisfying, is it? Saying Wild Shape lasts throughout the encounter (or until you use it again, of course) seems not only to be reasonable, but it also seems to be the intent of the designers (to have the power last, that is).
However, if you're looking for a rule saying it doesn't last all day, you won't find it. I'd go so far as to say you would make an unreasonable demand if you were to say "unless I see a rule telling me Wild Shape is limited to encounters I'll rule it works all day".
That is because 4E isn't about things outside of combat; it's all about the encounter. (Yes, this can be a disappointment for some D&D players.)
The best I can do is directing you towards the following, and noting Wild Shape isn't (a ritual):
"Rituals (see Chapter 10) can create effects that last for hours, days, or years."
--PHB, "Durations" section, page 278.
Really, that is all there is to it. If you choose to remain unconvinced, I'm afraid there isn't any more pages to turn to.
Instead I'd like you to do a little exercise: you show me where it says Wild Shape does work outside of combat!
(Because that's really where the burden of proof should lie, considering the 4E design parameters)Anyway, it's your game and you should feel free to do whatever if fun for your group. What you shouldn't do, however, is complain about how overpowered out-of-combat Druid Wild Shaping is if you choose to allow it...
Best Regards,
Zapp
