The New Druid

[StAlda]

The current route I am taking with Wild shape is this -

At 5th level Wild Shape is a daily that lasts for the encounter and this will be limited to the beast form of the spell (like wolverine),
at 7th or 8th it becomes an encounter that lasts the whole encounter(again limited to the form of the power)
at 11th+ it is a standard action that also costs 1 healing surge, you get the healing surge effect at the end of the wild shape.

I have some not-so-complete ways of dealing with the lower level beast form powers

I will be adding some powers for a weapon (oak cudgel/shillelagh, staff, scimitar)

 

[Fanaelialae]

The current route I am taking with Wild shape is this -

At 5th level Wild Shape is a daily that lasts for the encounter and this will be limited to the beast form of the spell (like wolverine),
at 7th or 8th it becomes an encounter that lasts the whole encounter(again limited to the form of the power)
at 11th+ it is a standard action that also costs 1 healing surge, you get the healing surge effect at the end of the wild shape.

I have some not-so-complete ways of dealing with the lower level beast form powers

I will be adding some powers for a weapon (oak cudgel/shillelagh, staff, scimitar)

Meaning no offense, but what is it that you are trying to accomplish with this? It seems to me as though you are attempting to turn the 4e druid into the 3.x druid. The problem is that the 4e druid is nowhere on the 3.x druid's level, and these changes only hurt the class.

A mid level 3.x druid could take the form of a Brown Bear and all the corresponding benefits thereof (increased ability score, natural armor, natural attacks, etc). A 4e druid can't take the form of a Brown Bear at all, though he could become a smallish (medium sized) bear. He does not gain anything beyond access to his Beast Form powers (and loses access to his spells in the process). The 3.x Wild Shape was balanced by being unavailable before 5th level, by requiring a standard action to shift, and being limited by the number of times per day it was usable. The 4e Wild Shape, lacking all of the features that made 3.x Wild Shape so good, doesn't require any of the 3.x limitations either.

4e druids are intended to be able to shift gracefully between melee combat (Beast Form) and ranged spellcasting. That is why Wild Shape includes a free shift when exiting Beast Form (to get you out of melee so that you can cast). The 3.x druid never needed such a feature because it had access to the Natural Spell feat (so that you had no need to switch back and forth).

The healing surge idea is somewhat interesting, but it breaks one of the assumptions of 4e; that being that the number of healing surges you can use in a given combat are limited. It seems to me that at level 11 the druid can just Wild Shape back and forth during combat to spend healing surges limited only by how many they have remaining. That said, I think this is the least problematic of the changes you propose.

These changes don't impact druids who want to play purely casters, but cripple beast druids as well as beast/caster hybrids. I'd be honestly surprised if these changes did much more than strongly discourage your players from playing druids (and if that's all you're after, why not simply ban them outright).

Early on, after my group switched from 2nd ed to 3.0, I had a DM who thought that sneak attack looked broken. He ruled that rogues could only get sneak attack damage once per round and additionally had to meet "backstab requirements" that were much harder to attain than flanking. The result was that, after unsuccessfully trying to convince him to undo the house rule, no one played a rogue in his campaign. Ironically, he never had a problem with druids.

 

[77IM]

Wow, so it is just me? Well I'm rebuilding to Druid in my campaign to not get Wild Shape until 11th level and then it will probably be a standard action. It will be a lot less Doppleganger and more....um, Druid.

If anyone is interested, I'll post the changes here.

Here's a suggestion that is less of a nerf to druid players:

Once per day, as a free action, you can use wild shape for the rest of the encounter or for five minutes. At the end of this time, you resume your normal form. You can't use wild shape at any other time. At 5th level, you can do this three times per day. At 11th level, you can wild shape at any time, and remain in beast form as long as you wish.

Thus it remains a viable combat ability without the flavor problems you seem to have. It can even be used out of combat, within limits.

-- 77IM

 

[StAlda]

Without any houseruling, druids are banned, so are Dragonborns, Tieflings, devas, goliaths and shifters. And I've already reworked the halfling into a...well, halfling. Though I did not ban the PH halfling, it is a tallfellow, the more common halfling is as follows.

HALFING (HAIRFOOT)

Small, practical people with a distaste for adventure and a love for comfort

RACIAL TRAITS
Average Height: 3´ 3˝–3´ 9˝
Average Weight: 60–100 lb.
Ability Scores: +2 Charisma, +2 Constitution
Size: Small
Speed: 5 squares
Vision: Normal
Languages: Common
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Stealth
Hairfoot Halfling Fortitude: You gain a +1 racial bonus to your Fortitude defense, and a +3 racial bonus to saving throws against fear and poison. When making an Endurance check against hunger, you roll twice and choose the higher result.
Persistent Traveler: You gain a +2 racial bonus to speed when determining the distance you can travel in a day.
Clear Head: You can use clear head as an encounter power.

Clear Head
Hairfoot Halfling Racial Power
Despite your small size, your resilience is hard to break.
Encounter
Free Reaction Personal
Effect: Reroll a saving throw against any power with the keywords Psychic or Charm. Use the second result, even if it’s lower.

 

[Turtlejay]

I think this is so much talk about nothing. The power only grants you abilities explicitly outlined in the power (no change in size, abilities, skills, etc), and thus has no real benefit other than a change in appearance. This does not confer an instinctual knowledge of how to *be* a creature. For example, wild shaping into a medium sized snake, you are long and skinny and scaly, but can you slither to move? Have you done it before? If you turn into a big cat, does this mean you can instinctually climb trees?

You are just you shaped different, entirely for the purpose of using powers with the Beast keyword. If you decide to use this power out of combat for roleplay purposes, I do not see this as being any more problematic than a wizard using his cantrips out of combat for roleplay purposes, but this would also carry the requirement that the player roleplay what he is doing, and this is what the game is all about, isn't it?

In the much referenced example of using it to scout out some enemies, how is this any more powerful than a character with a very high sneak doing so? Is a band of hobgoblins really going to ignore an addly acting stag that stands and stares at their camp? And if they do, so what? They are roleplaying a character who uses nature to accomplish his goals, if he could not scout then the rogue would have sneaked, the wizard would have gone in invisibly, or they would have attacked without foreknowledge.

In any case, the DM is the portal to the world that the players must use, and if they do something that seems questionable to you, then you hold ultimate power to make them pay some penalty for it. A druid attempting to impoersonate a dog to scout the thieves guild might be attacked by hungry urchins looking for an easy meal, or picked up by a fantasy version of a dogcatcher. In the end, punishing players for being creative by not even allowing them the chance to *be* creative is against my philosophy, and houseruling away some classes or aspects of them because they don't feel balanced to *you* is not really conducive to the group having fun and playing what they want to play.

All I can say is that if you were my DM and I wanted to play a druid, I would be out of your group before the first session started. You need to give each player a chance to play before you decide for them that they are munchkins.

Jay

 

[77IM]

I don't think it's about munchkins. The impression I got was that it was about flavor. Some people prefer a low-magic sort of world where there aren't exotic races running around and shape-shifting is a really cool power reserved for the truly awesome, like Witchalocks.

Make sure to make this very clear to your players before you start. There's nothing wrong with a homebrew setting, but you don't want to surprise people with a bunch of arbitrary-seeming restrictions.

-- 77IM

 

[StAlda]

Great, you wouldn't play, thanks, anything constructive? With your logic a druid who wild shapes into a tiger should have a massive negative to hit and damage (since they would not have first hand knowledge of how a tiger attacks)

Please do not reply to this thread if your main point is wild shape is no big deal, that I'm doing something wrong or you wouldn't play in my game. (please read the forum title)
Well, less so about the "wild shape is no big deal", if you post a new perspective of the ability.

Moving on.
Where in any folklore is a druid primarily a shapeshifter? That is what the new druid is DEFINED as - his defining ability is wild shape. And since we have already had the debate about powers only work in combat vs. powers work anytime - I think we all appreciate the other camps perspective. The perspective of this writer is that they do work all the time and that is why I find it overpowered as an at-will minor action power for a 0xp character. Saying you have to have wild shape because of all the powers is like saying we had to build cars because of all the roads. The power gap can be filled.

Just thinking out loud (or through the keyboard), I guess I will ban the Druid as written and create a new class called Celtic Druid that is based on the classic druid folklore and older D&D editions. Can you say druidic beast companion?

 

[StAlda]

77IM, your post is the basic idea of where I'm going with the houseruled druid I'm thinking of, a daily power to start with. As I mentioned earlier, it will be the 5th level daily power, probably "Primal Wolverine" as written. And many lower level powers don't really need to be Beast Form keyworded, like Fleet Pursuit, Roar of Terror. Even Predator’s Flurry could be a weapon based attack.

 

[77IM]

That still seems overly restrictive (and it's hard to turn an implement power into a weapon power).

How about this: If you're less than 5th level, you can wild shape, but your actual shape doesn't change. You take on a "bestial aspect" that lets you claw people and howl and so forth, but you still look like a humanoid. People look at you funny, but villagers do not run in fear from the were-creature. You can continue to use weapons while in this "form". After 5th level, you can wild shape into an actual animal form once per day per 5 levels.


So, that changes the flavor of wild shape without affecting the rules hardly at all. You take away the low-level druid's ability to infiltrate enemy camps while disguised as a dog; but you let druids use their weapons while wild shaped into a humanoid, which opens up a lot of interesting options (it gives druids a reason to actually care about what weapons they have).

-- 77IM

 

[StAlda]

I was working on the druid last night, and I found that it is extremely easy to convert Beast From powers into Beast (as in beast companion) powers. I've always thought Rangers and Druids were cut from nearly the same mold. Hobbling Rend and Primal Wolverine are the first powers that let a druid wild shape, with a sustain minor. (Roar of Terror does not need to have a Beast Form keyword) Hobbling Rend allows the druid to choose his wild shape, where Primal Wolverine forces the druid into a dire wolverine. Level 6 has no beast form powers. Level 7 will be modified to Beast powers. Level 9 dailies will allow the druid to wild shape into a predator of his choice that they can sustain free action. Level 10 Armor of the Wild can work on the druid in wild shape or their beast conpanion.