The New Red-Box...

[Windjammer]

If WotC succeeds in reaching out to these guys, of making them aware of the Red Box, this could be hugely successful. The target market is frankly enormous, and they don't really have to win them over this time. The memories do it for them!

Ah, interesting, I hadn't that target demographic in mind when ranting about not including 3rd level options. If you're right the product seems well designed. Certainly enough by way of providing material for a couple of sessions to let lapsed gamers with kids see if they like the game; and if they do, they've got the cash to invest in the books. Except that

1. This is the exact rationale which let WotC built their last Starter Set, which wasn't that well received.

2. That's a very far shot from the original Red Box in all but appearance. Basic D&D Red Box gave you lots of campaign material which would last you for half a year, and still remained to be priced at a tag that was affordable for the 10-12 year olds.

 

[bagger245]

1. Solo adventure
2. (The big one) Character creation rules

Good points, but I am still bummed out on the 2 levels only..

 

[Scribble]

It's just supposed to be a hook, so one level works out fine I think.

Players get to experience making a dude, roleplaying, exploring, fighting stuff, collecting treasure, leveling up, all for 20 bux. (Which isn't that much these days.) Then if they like it they can get more in a variety of different ways.


As for the original... I kind of remember 3rd level being a level where something has increased for everyone at that point? Am I wrong? (My books are still packed up after the move )

Also, back then there wasn't the internet. Now after the kids get a taste, they can log on and get a TON more right from their bedroom. (In between when they're downloading porn, and playing WoW. )

 

[Dm_from_Brazil]

It's a trap hook!

Somewhere in the product will be a note that you can get to third level (and see more races and classes and builds) by going online and downloading the free demo character builder.

And from there it's just a short step to a full DDI subscription...

FireLance have the right answer here: they got only up to the 2nd level so the buyer will have an enormous incentive (continue playing) to download the Free Character Builder..that´s a short step of subscribing to DDI.

AND let´s stop calling this a "one level starter set". It is a ONE level-up, TWO levels starter set. They way some put things here, one can imagine this scene:

Newbie DM:...and Ok, so now with this encounter, you go up to second level...
Novice Player: Nice! I have already choosen my new power from the player book you showed me. Can´t wait to use it!
Newbie DM: No, no, you don´t understand - you´ll have to create a new character.
Novice Player: What? Why? Won´t we keep playing with our second level characters?
Newbie DM: Of course not. I have seen in Internet, in that EnWorld Forum, that this a single level box. That must mean that we can only play the first level of the game- if not, it would be a TWO level box, isn´t?
Novice Player: ...

By the by, let´s not forget that ALL the Starter Sets were, in theory, great "teasers", hooks to the Core books.

From the Preface of the D&D Basic/Holmes, 1978 edition (Blue cover):
"Players who desire to go beyond the basic game are directed to the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons books".

The TSR mistake was making "Basic", with the B-E-C-M-I series, a complete game, with it´s own set of rules.

 

[Danzauker]

Not really. TSR made the sale either way, and so did the retailer carrying both lines. It's like a restaurant offering different dishes, except that the goods are not perishable.

I did not see any need for "Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!"

The big difference with TSR was that the several D&D and AD&D lines really were more like different editions of books than like utterly incompatible "operating systems". So far from there being some process-halting technical malfunction in trying to run an "Advanced" module with "Basic" rules, or vice-versa, they were to such an extent identical that I knew some folks who were not even aware of the distinction.

WotC has chosen instead to base its business on incompatibility. If you want to use the latest new modules, then you almost need to get the "upgraded core" as well.

The flip side is that some folks will prefer to skip the whole nine yards. Instead of getting doubled sales, what WotC gets from them is nada anymore. So, it's back to the remaining well for a third and fourth dip.

Problem is that Basic and Advanced catered to the same market. They were not selling a sci-fi RPG and a fantasy RPG. They were selling two versions of the same game. Economy says that printing, stocking, advertising, selling ONE product makes for lesser costs than TWO products, so it's more profitable.

Plus, you're saying that Basic and Advanced were compatible. It's not what the guys at TSR said. It was also printed on the covers of modules and stated in the manuals themselves.

I, personally, owned every BECMI box (plus lots of other stuff from the Basic line) but didn't buy any 1e or 2e rulebook, though I was forced to play it as a player, until near the end of 2e (and that mostly just in order to understand the various settings such as Dark Sun and Planescape in deep), because I liked BECMI a lot more.

So, I think understand the marketing move of making a "teaser" Red Box. It's intended to be played once or twice by a bunch of kids, before the say: "ok, we're sold, let's buy the real thing" and then be put on a shelf until they want to teach some more friends how to play.

I think the adventures contained will be somethink like "level zeroes" of videogames, where you're gradually learning the controls and options of the gme by playing a walkthrough.

 

[tuxgeo]

So, I think understand the marketing move of making a "teaser" Red Box. It's intended to be played once or twice by a bunch of kids, before the say: "ok, we're sold, let's buy the real thing" and then be put on a shelf until they want to teach some more friends how to play.

I think the adventures contained will be somethink like "level zeroes" of videogames, where you're gradually learning the controls and options of the gme by playing a walkthrough.

I must disagree with some of this:
(1) It apparently isn't "level zeroes" -- characters start at Level 1.
(2) It isn't just a "teaser" -- players could keep using the included dice and tokens and poster map and DM's advice for many levels if they go on to buy some of the new Essentials line's other items, such as "Rules Compendium" (a 6-inch by 9-inch trade paperback with full core rules); or "Heroes of the Fallen Lands" giving all levels, heroic through epic, for 5 iconic classes and 5 iconic races.

Edit: Oh, and the Power Cards: Players could also keep using the level 1 & 2 power cards as they play their characters through further Levels, as well.

Second Edit: 100 Posts! Woot! And in less than two years. . . .)

 

[Ariosto]

The 1978 (Holmes) edition was indeed meant as an introduction -- either to the prospective (as in not yet available) Advanced set or the Original one.

The 1981 B/X edition was meant as a replacement for the Original, and I for one see no reason to consider it -- or the 1983+ successor BECMI -- a "mistake". I personally prefer the earlier Moldvay/Cook/Marsh to Mentzer's version of Basic and Expert, but the Mentzer Basic has some advantages for the novice who was naturally its intended audience. The Companion, Masters and Immortals sets are in my opinion at least as worthy additions to the D&D field as the later AD&D 1E books or the Second Edition. I am no fan of Weapon Mastery, but neither am I a fan of Weapon Specialization.

The characterization of it as a separate game is not entirely anachronistic, as Gygax bruited AD&D as a whole new game. Bear in mind, though, that -- behind such public pronouncements -- one reason for the division was as legal ammunition in cutting off Dave Arneson from royalties for the AD&D line.

I think Gary was also honest in proclaiming his intended difference in spirit: D&D for the original audience of free-wheeling hackers, AD&D as a less flexible standard both for tournaments and for casual players.

The relative lack of fundamental differences in mechanics had been, I think, well enough demonstrated by the fact that people had been playing with mixed sets during the three years in which the MM, PHB and (eventually) DMG were successively released. I recall a few "AC 9 forever" holdouts -- who evinced no sense that it was thereby incumbent on them to pass up the PHB and DMG!

Not only did D&D mix readily with AD&D, but so (as illustrated in the DMG) did Gamma World. The Arduin Grimoire and the Mechanoid Invasion were at least as easy to add as GW, but Gygax was not in the business of promoting products from competitors!

 

[Jhaelen]

If you are acquainted with any one of the 1974, 1978, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1989, etc., TSR editions of Dungeons & Dragons, then I can count on your knowing what I'm talking about when I'm talking "AC4, HD3+2" and so on.

Okay, but what's the use if the stats don't represent the power level of the game system? Then they might as well not exist.

There's no such thing as a "Hit Die" in 4E, and no such thing as most of the 4E jargon in old D&D. Is there a "Weaponsoul Dance" or "Chains of Sorrow" rule even in 3E?

Yep, however you don't need to know anything about it except what's included in the stat block.
If you are able to read a 4e monster stat block, you're good to go.

What actually happened was that TSR sold both sets, PLUS the modules and magazines and so on that were easily usable with both sets.

Okay. But in my completely anecdotal experience people were not mixing anything. In our area it was like this:
Group 1 played AD&D with person A as the DM, and the players B, C, and D.
Group 2 played D&D with person B as the DM, and the players A, C, and D.
Group 3 played TDE with person C as the DM, and the players A, B, and D.
Group 4 played Midgard with person D as the DM, and the players A, B, and C.

Now, those players who had the cash available would buy stuff from AD&D, D&D, TDE, and Midgard.
Those who didn't, typically didn't buy anything but were supplied with photocopies.

Sometimes players would buy stuff for systems that seemed to be played by many people, so they would have a clue and be able to join a group when a space became available with a minimum of guidance.

DMs were in short supply, so you typically had to adopt their favorite system if you wanted to get to play at all.

There was also a very high percentage of completely homebrewed rpg systems. Official adventure modules were an exception rather than the rule. Almost everyone wrote their own adventures.

As soon as I had a job, I started buying pretty much every rpg system that looked remotely interesting, becoming a collector.

I also started buying adventure modules - but only for inspiration, not to actually play them. I also thought that D&D adventures sucked big time compared to the modules that were released for other systems (back then I particularly liked the MERP modules).

Anyway, I think I just lost track of my train of thoughts...

I guess what I wanted to say is that compatibility was a non-issue back then. Noone expected nor wanted adventure modules to be compatible with anything.

And I still fail to see, what the hell should be incompatible between two modules written for D&D 4E?!

 

[Pseudopsyche]

I think the new red box seems to offer quite a lot for $20. DMs get enough rules, tokens, and maps to run their first game, all of which are still usable with other Essentials products and even existing products. Players can create their own characters, suitable for both the beginner adventure and which presumably graduate to further adventures. It's not like everything in the box is useless after you finish level 2.

Regardless, for $20 you get to sample D&D. Sure you need to buy other books once you reach level 3, but for $20 you learn whether that money will be well spent. (Besides, all you should really need after the starter et is the Rules Compendium and one DDI subscription.) The point is that you don't have to start with $105 for the first three core books to learn whether or not this hobby is for you.

That said, we'll have to see how well designed this product will be. Even for just $20, they should be able to produce a better introduction than what's currently available. I'm just glad they didn't stop with just releasing H1 free online.

 

[ExploderWizard]

For $20.00 I will certainly check it out to satisfy curiosity.

It seems with this new line, WOTC is able to essentially release 4.5 edition without all the baggage that little decimal brings with it.

If the new rules compendium is full of errata/changes then the 4.5 move will be complete.