The Ninja Warlock

[chaotix42]

Duelpersonality summed up the issue nicely. Even though on the pg. 281 sidebar they mention "concealed targets" I'm rather certain this doesn't apply to targets with only concealment since they mention making a Stealth check after immediate actions and OAs - actions that would normally ruin any Stealth benefits. Normally, that is, unless you still can't be seen due to total concealment or invisibility. My simple fix and clarification:

Change any active Perception check to a minor action. If someone is hiding using concealment only then ignore the sidebar on pg. 281 since you can see the target - make an active Perception check as a minor action vs. their last Stealth check. If you beat their check you can see them normally, and if you fail they remain hidden. Only use the rules in the sidebar on pg. 281 when you literally cannot see a target - when they benefit from total concealment, are invisible, are hiding in complete darkness, etc. This meshes with the rules in the Stealth skill entry.

 

[ethandrul]

another trick with this build would be to apply the at will that causes damage as an enemy approaches you.

if you can get the stealth off just move around, pop them and watch them fall. every time one dies, you go invisible.

 

[Arbitrary]

There is no difference between a successful hide check in total darkness and any other successful hide check.

If you have successfully hidden than you cannot be seen. Total concealment, hiding in total darkness, hiding under normal lighting (because you picked up concealment from somewhere), or just being flat out invisible from a power or item are all going to fall under pg 281's minor action for a Perception check sidebar.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Change any active Perception check to a minor action. If someone is hiding using concealment only then ignore the sidebar on pg. 281 since you can see the target - make an active Perception check as a minor action vs. their last Stealth check. If you beat their check you can see them normally, and if you fail they remain hidden. Only use the rules in the sidebar on pg. 281 when you literally cannot see a target - when they benefit from total concealment, are invisible, are hiding in complete darkness, etc. This meshes with the rules in the Stealth skill entry.

This is how I'm going to be running it right now. This particular issue will soon be a constant in one of my games, with a party made up of 2 warlocks, a rogue and a ranger. Fun times.

 

[Duelpersonality]

There is no difference between a successful hide check in total darkness and any other successful hide check.

If you have successfully hidden than you cannot be seen. Total concealment, hiding in total darkness, hiding under normal lighting (because you picked up concealment from somewhere), or just being flat out invisible from a power or item are all going to fall under pg 281's minor action for a Perception check sidebar.

Then what qualifies the use of an active Perception check as a standard action as described under the Perception skill on page 186? I understand that there are going to be exceptions, but ruling it that way seems to eliminate the original rule entirely. Also note that Stealth does not just cover hide (though that is part of it) but the old move silently as well. There is a difference (mechanically) between having concealment and having total concealment. No where do the rules state that making a Stealth check grants any kind of concealment, only that a character must have cover or concealment to make a Stealth check at all. The closest thing to this is on page 281, where it says, "A variety of powers and other effects can render you invisible, effectively giving you total concealment." There is the ambiguous wording in the sidebar, but I would rule that it is only referring to inivisible creatures, not creatures making a Stealth check.

 

[Kurotowa]

Honestly, I think the combat uses of this are pretty minimal, unless you go to absurd lengths to maximize things. And even then it's probably not worth the effort. But I think it does have a promising use for non-combat stealthing.

 

[Benly]

Honestly, I think the combat uses of this are pretty minimal, unless you go to absurd lengths to maximize things. And even then it's probably not worth the effort. But I think it does have a promising use for non-combat stealthing.

The thing is that the lengths involved in maximizing it to some degree aren't particularly absurd. Warlocks have one good heroic-tier feat, two if you want to be a Ritual Spellcaster. Even adding in racial feats, you still have few enough good options that the cost to benefit ratio of spending three feats to be largely immune to brutes and soldiers most of the time is well worth it.

 

[Arbitrary]

Again, pg 178

When you use Stealth, for example, you're testing your ability to hide against someone else's ability to spot hidden things (the Perception skill). These skill contests are called opposed checks. When you make an opposed check both characters roll, and the higher check result wins.

The "I just roll against everyone's passive Perception and I'm good" idea is nonsense. Every round you attack and try and restealth you are going to have to make an opposed roll against the entire battlefield. Minions are typically going to come in multiples of five and all it is going to take is one dork spotting you and running up and attacking and all the effort you've put into the character to break Shadow Walk + Stealth isn't going to get you anywhere but right to the top of the aggro list for doing a bunch of flashy things and damage at the same time.

 

[Duelpersonality]

Again, pg 178

When you use Stealth, for example, you're testing your ability to hide against someone else's ability to spot hidden things (the Perception skill). These skill contests are called opposed checks. When you make an opposed check both characters roll, and the higher check result wins.

The "I just roll against everyone's passive Perception and I'm good" idea is nonsense. Every round you attack and try and restealth you are going to have to make an opposed roll against the entire battlefield. Minions are typically going to come in multiples of five and all it is going to take is one dork spotting you and running up and attacking and all the effort you've put into the character to break Shadow Walk + Stealth isn't going to get you anywhere but right to the top of the aggro list for doing a bunch of flashy things and damage at the same time.

Yes, an active roll from each observer will make this tactic a little less useful. Still, I don't see the problem with it. Don't forget that defenders have abilities to lock enemies in place, and a Star Pact warlock can use Dire Radiance to keep at least one enemy at bay. This isn't the end all of combat stealth (rogues will always have that one, I think), just a nice technique to help avoid getting attacked. Even if the warlock is spotted, they still have concealment, giving ranged and melee attacks against them a -2 penalty. As always, tactics like this are going to work out differently depending on the party and the DM.

 

[Benly]

Again, pg 178

When you use Stealth, for example, you're testing your ability to hide against someone else's ability to spot hidden things (the Perception skill). These skill contests are called opposed checks. When you make an opposed check both characters roll, and the higher check result wins.

That's true. Fortunately, most brutes and soldiers have agonizingly low Perception checks.

The "I just roll against everyone's passive Perception and I'm good" idea is nonsense. Every round you attack and try and restealth you are going to have to make an opposed roll against the entire battlefield.

True.

Minions are typically going to come in multiples of five and all it is going to take is one dork spotting you and running up and attacking and all the effort you've put into the character to break Shadow Walk + Stealth isn't going to get you anywhere but right to the top of the aggro list for doing a bunch of flashy things and damage at the same time.

Where in the rules do you get that being attacked by one creature breaks your hiding? Granted, it will let his buddies know what square I'm in, but they'll still be eating the hefty -5 penalty and it won't do them any good once I move or teleport to another location - they'll have to start the finding game over again.

But let's assume for the sake of argument that I roll a natural 1, every enemy on the battlefield rolls a natural 20, and I'm entirely spotted. What then?

Then I'm in exactly the same position as any other warlock - my actual warlock abilities haven't been impinged upon by this stealth trick because there's very little else those three heroic-tier feats could be doing to improve my abilities as a striker or as a warlock. An ordinary warlock will have been following much the same strategy; since you get the -2 to enemy attacks for moving around anyway, it's silly not to if you have the chance. You seem to think that "all the effort" I'm putting into this is some huge investment of character power, but it's not. It's three heroic-tier feats for the basics: Skill Training, Sneak of Shadows, and Acolyte Power. If you want to be better at it, you can add Skill Focus and a suit of Sylvan armor. You get six heroic-tier feats, and barring high-quality racials there's one that, on its own, makes you a better warlock. Even if you go full-tilt on stealth you still have room for your Improved (Pact Boon) feat and Improved Initiative, Toughness, Ritual Caster or whatever else you feel like.

Now, I will grant that it is very likely that I will attract a lot of attention from the controllers and from the higher-Perception artillery. That's not a problem of being a stealthlock, it's a problem of being a striker. Being a stealthlock just means I have a chance of it not happening when I outroll them.