The party's cleric *won't* heal your character?!

[Numion]

However, there's still the forgotten assumption about the CLERIC. Assuming the cleric is lvl 7, he/she has access to 4th level spells. Therefore, the cleric quite possibly has divine power active on him/her. If the cleric is using the same weapon as the fighter, then the cleric/fighter are essentially equal in damage-causing potential, delivering up to 4 attacks in a single round by themselves. 8 over two rounds. At +9/+4 for two people w/o Str bonuses to attack, then we're talking probably at least 2 hits, closer to 3. For a decently buffed party, that means they'll likely deal something like a third of the total HPs of the hill giant by themselves. With an arcanist and perhaps a rogue backing them up, they should be rather capable of taking down the giant within a round or two. If they were by themselves, that is an over CR-ed encounter by 2, which means it's entirely legit that the encounter could almost take them down, regardless.

Now we're getting somewhere. In 3.0E a cleric does a better job of fightering than a straight fighter. If not in straight offense, clerics endurance is much higher with all the magics. It takes a lot of spells, though. And preparedness. But that's how I like to play my clerics.

It actually got really crazy with spells like Fortunate Fate from splatbooks, and of course polymorphing into a giant at highest levels (using Miracle to emulate lower level wizard spells.). All kinds of crazy stuff.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Most of the time offensive play with clerics is superior to medic style of play, in my humble experience. In combat we try to end it as soon as possible, and then heal between the fights with Cure Light wands. Sometimes it's good to heal in combat, though.

I'm not saying its always tactially superior. But, often it is. Offense is not always better than defense. And, survival is more important than either of those. If you have to run, then run. I've seen entire sessions go by where the main tank (a barbarian/fighter) was constantly at least 2 rounds from death. It was all the cleric could do to keep him from falling.

However, there's still the forgotten assumption about the CLERIC. Assuming the cleric is lvl 7, he/she has access to 4th level spells. Therefore, the cleric quite possibly has divine power active on him/her.

The question is one of safety, for me. I DM a group that has a half-ogre barbarian 1/cleric X that casts divine favor and rages. He is a killing machine. And, remember, while raging, he loses the ability to cast spells, so until he finishes, the party is without healing. And, in the right circumstances, it works. And, its great, and I fully endorse that playstyle.

I allowed a variant battle cleric that traded Turn Undead for d10 hit dice and the restriction that he could only heal those who had been previously injured in combat. He couldn't heal damage purely from traps or falling or things of that nature. He was all about the fighting.

However, there are times when you just have to buckle down and cast a cure spell even if you don't want to. I am in no way saying that clerics should spend every round of every combat worrying about healing the other party members. But, there are many times (notably when the opposition is dealing a lot of damage) that healing is going to take priority, even if you don't like it.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

However, there are times when you just have to buckle down and cast a cure spell even if you don't want to. I am in no way saying that clerics should spend every round of every combat worrying about healing the other party members. But, there are many times (notably when the opposition is dealing a lot of damage) that healing is going to take priority, even if you don't like it.

Yes. Sometimes the CLW just isn't going to be useful. But, then again, sometimes you have to buckle down and cast the Heal spell. It's going to be situationally dependent.

Brad

 

[green slime]

To clarify: The hill giant closes on round 1 and hits the Fighter. The Fighter can no longer withdrawl from the giant, so he takes 2 attacks on the giant's next turn. The cleric could heal him between those two attacks or attack the giant himself, but if he attacks the giant, and the gaint doesn't die before its next action, the Fighter has around a 50% chance of dying. If the cleric heals him, then the giant probaby won't kill the Fighter next round, giving the party 1 entire extra round to kill the giant with no casualties.

I disagree.

The giant has attacks +16/+11 for 2d8+10, the fighter's AC at least 23: (70%*19+45%*19) = average expected damage output is 21.85 per round. In other words, the fighter can be expected to last two more entire rounds, at least, barring extreme die rolls.

The 7th level fighter does +15/+10 (BAB +7/+2 +5 Str +2 Magic +1 Focus) 1d10+9 damage or 80%*14.5+55%*14.5) = average damage output 19.575 In order to slay the Hill Giant, the fighter needs to stay standing for 6 rounds. If even a mediocre combat Cleric (BAB +5 Str +2, Magic +1) damage d8+3 flanks in the battle, the average damage goes up to (90%*14.5 +65%*14.5 + 50%*7.5) = 26.225 damage, or enough to take the Hill Giant out in 4 rounds. Add in a few magic missiles, and a flanking rogue, and suddenly the fighter isn't dead during the battle, regardless of what the cleric does.

A Cure Critical Wounds cast by a 7th level cleric heals 4d8+7, or 25 hit points on average. The average 7th level cleric can do this twice, whereupon it becomes a loosing battle, with successively weaker spells, for the same cost in actions. With the added risk of weakening the party further through providing the Hill Giant with AoO.

 

[ThirdWizard]

statistical stuff

While the statistics behind combat are often enlightening, you can't really break it down when you're looking at such a small sample size as 2 rounds and say that the Fighter is going to live 2 rounds. One average roll and one slightly above average roll on attacks will mean the Fighter is most likely dead in one round (unless the damage is low).

Even if the average damage output per round is 21.85 damage, that's the average over a long sample. When we're just looking at a short burst, it will lose its accuracy greatly (ie the standard deviation is going to be large for a short term).

Also recall that clerics have access to things like wands and scroll. A few scrolls of cure critical wounds will cost 700 gp each, but will allow the cleric to go on longer and utilize the spells he wants more often.

With the added risk of weakening the party further through providing the Hill Giant with AoO.

If the cleric stands on the opposite side of the Fighter, then there are no AoOs involved.

 

[Tatsukun]

(Sorry, didn’t read all the posts, hope it’s still on topic)

Yes, I have an NPC hireling cleric in a game refuse to heal my barbarian for some reason. The next battle, the barbarian just stepped aside and let the monsters have at the cleric. I believe the quote was “We all have a job buddy, you do yours I’ll do mine”.

-Tatsu

 

[Corinth]

Whatever happened to the DM allowing the players to play whatever they want and designing adventures that are challenging to them without exploiting obvious weaknesses to the point where it's no fun?

Kicked to the curb in '74. Team first, team last, team always; what the group needs always trumps what the individual wants.

I've DM'd parties with no divine casters at all and they did just fine. I think that players can make up anything they want, it doesn't have to be "optimized for combat," and it's my job to make sure that works.

Player skill matters. Coddle them and they'll never learn to play properly.

 

[cmanos]

I have considered making the spell from the Spell Compendium which allows you to heal only those of your religeon, the 'standard' healing spell of clerics and making the "Cure" spells much more rare. I have also considered making the 'cure light' which only targets those of your religeon a L0 spell.

 

[lukelightning]

In 3e healing should not be a problem....Dip a single level of Cleric, Druid, Bard, Paladin, or Ranger....

What? If the cleric doesn't want to heal you you should multiclass?

I thought I was clear in my earlier posts but I will restate this: I have no problem with clerics not being "combat medics" that run around during combat healing people instead of fighting. As many people have pointed out, the best defense is often offense and the cleric's casting of flame strike or whatever is often a better choice than casting a cure spell. Also, I think that any wise adventurer should carry a few potions of cure or other healing magic that they can use in combat to keep themselves alive.

However, a cleric has access to healing spells and abilities far beyond those of any other standard class. In many parties the cleric has the majority of healing abilities, and overall should be expected to use their spells to heal the party after combat.

The argument that "clerics should only heal people of their faith" may be valid, but the repercussions of this is that the party should be free to say "goodbye" to the cleric and get one that isn't so picky. I've never actually seen a situation this drastic; I've seen the far better choice of "my cleric preaches at you when he heals so if you want that boo-boo taken care of you better not mind sitting through a sermon." This lets the player with the cleric roleplay his zealot without having the other players get resentful.

This was my strategy when I was to slow in saying *not it* when picking classes and got stuck with a cleric(not literally, but this was, in effect, what happened. And the DM warned that we were doing a very undead-intensive adventure, so a full cleric was strongly recommended). I said "fine, I'll be the cleric, but since we're starting at 10th level everyone should buy some potions or whatever for healing themselves in combat, since my cleric is Brother Pyros, worshipper of the Fire God, and he's gonna focus on burning up his enemies in combat, not healing you wimps. Plus, whenever they needed healing, they had to listen to his crazed babbling about the Fire God ("The sinful are punished by burning forever in a lake of fire. And the faithful are rewarded by burning forever in a lake of fire...")

 

[Ipissimus]

I agree with the people who have said that healing is not an either/or thing. Clerics can heal and they can do everything else you could ever want them to do. A Cleric gets a whole ton of spells per day, even without high wisdom, several of which almost HAVE to be non-healing spells (unless you have the healing domain and chose to use it).

I can make a War Cleric that can buff himself into the stratosphere and still heal everyone. Conversely, I can make a Cloistered Cleric that makes a Wizard look like a poor second cousin at blasting people, and he can still heal everyone without feeling the pinch. The Cleric class is a marvel of flexibility, both in mechanics and in practice.

The problem with not getting any healing isn't the first fight. It's the second, the third, the fourth... on and on and on. Your Fighter can have as many HP as he likes and AC so high the Gods have trouble hitting him, but anything can roll a 20. Eventually, those HP will get whittled down and sleeping for a night give you back a measly 1 hp... maybe 2. Then the fighter has to come back and do the same job the next day... death by 1000 cuts. The whole party gets whittled down and if the Cleric doesn't do it for free, all your hard-earned money goes out the door.

So, is it any wonder the Fighters want healing? A Wizard's at death's door without healing, even if they haven't dumped Con. Nobody wants their character to die, if the Cleric can fix that easily, the whole party prospers. Alot of players will play without a Fighter, Wizard or Thief but most will balk at a party without a Cleric.

As for taking healing away completely... it's not as easy as just crossing out the spells from the list. If you run a combat heavy campaign, then the rules for damage need to be changed so that you can expect the players a decent chance of survival. HP run out like sand through an hourglass with a broken bottom, particular in tougher encounters. If you're playing a combat light campaign where the characters can expect to get into a tough fight once every month or so, you're probably going to be ok. Maybe. If they're lucky.