The Playtest Fighter

[Bran Mak Morn]

Something explaing this needs to be the fighter class section of the PHB and in the DMG. Way less confrontational, yes, but I think it should be spelled out right there in the core. I haven't had a chance to read the playtest DMG, is it in there? It might even need to be on the fighters character sheet.

Again it's only my opinion but it's under the Improvise action in the How To Play document.

 

[Melkor]

Let me quote the best 5E fighter's post I read so far (in particular the first paragraph), from the wizards forum:

"People. If you play a Fighter and you never do anything but make attack rolls, that is your fault. Fourth edition has trained players to look at their character sheet to see what their powers allow them to do. Fifth edition is, very specifically, the opposite of that. You say what you want to do, and you make a check to do it. You don't have to have a power to do it, you just do it.

Use a Strength contest to shove the other guy into a pit. Use a Dexterity contest against an enemy during your movement to fake them out; if you win, you gain Advantage for your attack this turn; if you lose, the enemy gains Advantage on their next attack against you. Dexterity check, DC 13 to swing from the chandelier and crash into your enemy: if you succeed, make a melee attack with +1d6 damage. If you fail (by 10 or more, as per the Hazard rules), fall flat on your face. Strength check DC 15 to throw a barrel of water down the stairs; if you succeed, anybody on the stairs has to make a DC 13 Dexterity save to avoid being knocked prone and taking 1d6 damage. Dexterity contest vs. Dexterity or Constitution to throw sand in a guy's eyes, blinding him until he uses an action to clear it out. Strength check to tip over a bookcase, forcing anyone on the other side to make a Dexterity save to avoid being pinned underneath. Anything you can think to do, you can do. But not if you're looking at your character sheet for inspiration, because they can't possible outline every possible action, no matter how many powers you have.

Yes, everybody can try these stunts. But Fighters will be better at them, as their primary stats are the Physical stats, so they'll be higher. Wizards and Clerics will need more mental stats, so won't be as good at these sorts of stunts. Even a Rogue will want Wisdom and Charisma for perception and social skills. Beyond that, a Fighter's ability to smash face is still balanced with the abilities of other classes; the only problem is that it feels boring to only attack and attack and attack, no matter how effectively you're attacking. But if you can't come up with something to do other than swinging your sword, that is your problem. You don't get to blame the game system for your own lack of creativity, especially when you're playing a game that's specifically designed to thrive on creativity.

(And yes, I'm aware that this type of play and stuntwork requires a DM that's not a useless lump... but having a decent DM has always been important in D&D. That's not new.)"

I could never have said it better. 4E has always felt like being restrained to me. Just my 2 cents, however.

This. A thousand times this.

 

[mlund]

Hm, it would be interesting if the Fighter had a feature that gave him a bonus to any checks for physical contests or stunts during a battle - basically compensation for not using his bonus to weapon attacks and damage. Even something simple but profound like Advantage would be a huge incentive to wrestle monsters and smash up the set a bit. It doesn't even make the fighter's core function any more complicated with a ton of new rules to learn. It just says, "apply imagination here as needed." If someone's sheepish and just wants to hit people with swords 40 times a game, that is balanced and works well. And the first time they get excited bust out with "I kick him off the stairs!" the rules are there to quickly and simply give them resolution to their idea as well as a pat on the back.

- Marty Lund

 

[darjr]

Again it's only my opinion but it's under the Improvise action in the How To Play document.

Yea, just read that so cool!

However I'd think something more specific to the fighter with more emphasis would be cool. Maybe even give the fighter a bit of a boost in the class.

Also I'd have weapons like brass knuckles, and steel toed boots, and let the fighter use his sheild like a weapon. That +2 would apply to all of them, also the players book notes that an attack uses some kind of weapon, including bare fists. So are bare fists a weapon?

 

[Herschel]

Let me quote the best 5E fighter's post I read so far (in particular the first paragraph), from the wizards forum:

"People. If you play a Fighter and you never do anything but make attack rolls, that is your fault. Fourth edition has trained players to look at their character sheet to see what their powers allow them to do. Fifth edition is, very specifically, the opposite of that. You say what you want to do, and you make a check to do it. You don't have to have a power to do it, you just do it.

4E never constrained fighters to their powers but gave them a suite of moves/techniques they could use if they chose to. DMs could still adjudicate just fine, but it also gave them a baseline of examples to measure what players want to do against.

 

[Bran Mak Morn]

Yea, just read that so cool!

However I'd think something more specific to the fighter with more emphasis would be cool. Maybe even give the fighter a bit of a boost in the class.

Also I'd have weapons like brass knuckles, and steel toed boots, and let the fighter use his sheild like a weapon. That +2 would apply to all of them, also the players book notes that an attack uses some kind of weapon, including bare fists. So are bare fists a weapon?

Well try to think about the feature the fighter get at level 2 (it does not say additional attack, it refers to an additional action), combine with what we said above, and you get a quite strong, cinematic and (more important) limited by imagination only class feature nobody else can do

 

[Kinak]

4E never constrained fighters to their powers but gave them a suite of moves/techniques they could use if they chose to. DMs could still adjudicate just fine, but it also gave them a baseline of examples to measure what players want to do against.

In theory, you're absolutely right. There's nothing preventing a GM of any game system from adding things like stunts and action zones.

However, categorizing all those abilities makes improvisation uncomfortable. The player can say "I swing my axe at the goblin, trying to knock him off the cliff" but how does that interplay with Tide of Iron? Should there be a penalty there? Did you just give away a power for free? Did another player waste a power slot on that power?

The more subtle factor is that human beings can only handle so many options at once. If you have one or two options, we're going to be looking for more. If you already have five or six, we're good to go on the option front.

So, if you want to make terrain/zones and improvisation/stunts come up in play, don't list out a ton of options on the character sheet. Let people focus on the battle, looking for options in the battle, rather than focusing on their character sheet looking for options there.

Cheers!
Kinak

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I like the fighter

I think you could esily mix the fighter with the guardian theme and the knight background and have a more complex character.

I see the rules and see a system which seems flexible and full of options.

 

[Salamandyr]

I like the Playtest fighter...a lot*. Here's why.

1. This is one kind of fighter; the slayer. The slayer exists to put the hurt on his opponents. Other themes will provide other abilities, possibly some with more control options, or more defensive abilites (we saw some of those with the Cleric of Moradin).

2. What the fighter needs, rather than some list of arbitrary powers, is a complete combat chapter that provides for more options than just attacking someone for damage. Any character should be able to attempt to disarm, push someone, grapple, break weapons, or knock down an opponent. The fighter should be a lot better at these things than any other class, and should be able to do them more often, the same way that any character can hide, but the rogue is a lot better at it and can do it in more circumstances.

Obviously we've only got the bare bones of the combat chapter right now, so obviously the fighter appears limited in what he can do. But even so, the fighter, with just a standard attack roll, has options...whether to use a ranged weapon or close distance, who to engage, whether to continue to attacking the guy he's on or break away to pick up an opponent, etc.

If combat maneuvers get turned into "powers" or feats that only certain fighters can use if they have the proper build, then quite frankly the game fails for me.

*okay, I would have really preferred a human fighter. When the get the character creation chapter going, that'll probably be the first character I make.

 

[Kraydak]

Speaking as someone who played a 1e Fighter for years (with Unearthed Arcana), a fighter who just hits things is fun, IF:

1) You do lots more damage than other people. Which was true in 1e post UA so including Weapon Specialization. Note that while Mages could clear hordes with Fireball, 9d6/2 at 9th level (the default assumption is that any important enemies save) is only 15.75 on average. Gauntlets of Ogre Power, a Longsword +2 and even single specialization at lvl 9 gives two attacks a round for 4.5+10. And hitting is usually easy and that was assuming a Small-Medium opponent.

2) You can take a lot more damage than anyone else. 1e/2e Fighter saves were good starting around lvl 6, and excellent by level 9. Also, Con benefitted fighters more because everyone else was capped at +2/hit die, while fighters were uncapped. Also, no dex cap on armor.

At level 9, as a high con dwarven fighter, my character could *wade* through giants and nearly saved on 2s against things that mattered (go go dwarven con bonus to saves). The party clerics provided utility and healing. The wizard, utility and horde-removal. The party rogue provided utility and some clutch damage. Killing stuff and holding the line was the fighters' job. No one else came close.