The Power of Prayer

[Ahnehnois]

I should say that the fighter waited too late IMO.

This is prayer we're talking about. People tend to do it as a last resort.

The intent here is that the player in this situation is thinking in mechanical terms and at this moment really wishes his character was a cleric or otherwise had legal access to a healing spell, but these things are not the case; he is a member of a different class. The player is trying to "fiat" a cleric spell or some equivalent, and the question is how does that play out.

If the request failed, I'd likely have the diety express his displeasure that the fighter considered it more important to kill orcs than protect his wife.

A legitimate point. I added this line because I wanted to be clear that the threat was over and the only thing hanging in the balance is whether the fallen wife character dies of her existing damage or not. I also wanted it to be clear that the fighter is a fighter and behaves like a fighter, not a medic. And that he's only human; it may indeed have been a mistake born of rage for him to do this, and the deity certainly may express displeasure if you feel that way.

Since you mention the fighter 'taking levels', if the intervention is successful the intervention is likely to be quite spectacular, but an actual raise dead requires a pretty potent success.

Yes, the intent was that this is a mid-level fighter. Another thing that I'll go back and clarify.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

She dies while the fighter is praying instead of bandaging wounds.

Really, any combatant should have enough basic first aid knowledge to stabilize a downed ally (even as an untrained Heal check).

 

[howandwhy99]

Percentile roll.

I always like the God Call mechanic. Even if it was a house rule from back in the day. Get really, really lucky and maybe you get something to take notice. That may not necessarily be good if the PC's not aligned. Or you could roll poorly and attract the attention of something not in your favor. But both are rather unlikely.

I want to point out that if there are paladins and other similar subclasses in the game, then the game should have the means for common fighters to become Paladins - your divinely devoted holy warrior type - without the intervention of other paladins to necessarily train them. A fighter character might do that with a high level cleric for instance. Or through communion with their deity through a divine item like a special alter. Communing with anything capable of granting people unique abilities, like divine spells for instance, comes at a cost. But those demons and devils seem capable enough to tempt the foolish natured mortals. Why not deities? (or maybe their intermediaries?)

 

[Ahnehnois]

She dies while the fighter is praying instead of bandaging wounds.

Really, any combatant should have enough basic first aid knowledge to stabilize a downed ally (even as an untrained Heal check).

A fair response. One reason why I specified that the character had low Wis was to suggest that he was bad at first aid, but another was to suggest that praying might not have been his only option, but he chose to do it anyway because he's a very religious fighter and that's more intuitive to him than trying to stop the bleeding himself. Whether or not that was a good decision is to a significant extent your interpretation. I tried to suggest that this was a situation where the petitioner is relatively deserving of divine aid, but if you determine that he is unworthy, that is your call.

The same thing happens sometimes with characters that do have spells; they use them as a crutch even when it might not be necessary.

I always like the God Call mechanic. Even if it was a house rule from back in the day. Get really, really lucky and maybe you get something to take notice. That may not necessarily be good if the PC's not aligned. Or you could roll poorly and attract the attention of something not in your favor. But both are rather unlikely.

Cool.

I want to point out that if there are paladins and other similar subclasses in the game, then the game should have the means for common fighters to become Paladins - your divinely devoted holy warrior type - without the intervention of other paladins to necessarily train them.

Yes. However, not all faithful people have divine magic, the way I see it. This example was specifically to isolate someone who roleplays faith but clearly does not have any divine abilities on his character sheet. This player chose to play a fighter with a strong in-game faith; he is not interested in the paladin or any other class.

But nonetheless, a situation arises and now he really wants some divine help.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I tried to suggest that this was a situation where the petitioner is relatively deserving of divine aid, but if you determine that he is unworthy, that is your call.

But nonetheless, a situation arises and now he really wants some divine help.

As a mid-level character, were he truly worthy he would have the capability by now (as simulated by taking a level in one of the many divine classes the game has to offer).

His deity's response: "Oh, now that it's life and death you want me to step in, but you couldn't be bothered to take a level in cleric or marshal before when the chips weren't down? A foul weather worshipper and summer-time soldier you are; I'm not your personal servant"

(Edit: Never been a fan of the "God Call". Divine classes have it covered.)

 

[Arduin's]

So for your example, the fighter has a 10% chance of aid arriving immediately and very small(level as a percentage of 1%) chance the god will appear.

The part I use is: "Otherwise, the accumulation of hit points and the ever-greater abilities and better saving throws of characters represents the aid supplied by supernatural forces."

Also, evenly spaced throughout the dungeon is something called the S.O.L. Hotline characters can use.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'd roll a chance for divine intervention. Based on the character's devoutness, and assuming that he isn't constantly praying for his deity to intervene on his behalf, I'd give him decent odds that his deity intercedes. What form that intercession took would be up to me and how generous I was feeling, but it would be something that could be chalked up to luck. Maybe she gets a bonus to stabilize, maybe she does it automatically, or maybe a cleric of Pelor happens to be in the right place at the right time.

Back in the day, we had rules for this sort of thing. Every character had a 1% chance per level of divine intercession assuming they were at least somewhat devout (I think clerics and paladins had double that). Usually when the deity interceeded, that character would have a vision (sometimes requiring something of that character in return). Though it failed more often than not, it did make for some enjoyable scenes and last second TPK avoidance. For reasons I don't recall we moved on to a more ad hoc method, but that very rarely comes into play compared to the old rule.

 

[Agamon]

I love the idea of an agent (likely an angel of some sort) appearing before the PC and healing his wife. This being could become a very interesting recurring NPC...it might not even be what it appears to be....

 

[Ahnehnois]

As a mid-level character, were he truly worthy he would have the capability by now (as simulated by taking a level in one of the many divine classes the game has to offer).

His deity's response: "Oh, now that it's life and death you want me to step in, but you couldn't be bothered to take a level in cleric or marshal before when the chips weren't down? A foul weather worshipper and summer-time soldier you are; I'm not your personal servant"

So, in your eyes, "worthiness" in the diety's eyes is represented by the presence of levels of cleric or some similar class on his character sheet. The player's actions in play, even if they are things the deity would approve of, do not hold up without an actual character class in the player's stats representing that devotion.

Again, that's a valid answer, and it's probably the conventional D&D answer.

(Edit: Never been a fan of the "God Call". Divine classes have it covered.)

Well, they do. And this is really the closest thing to the point I was getting at with this question in the first place. It's about niche protection. The cleric to me is probably the most justifiable example of niche protection in the game world: they're specific people who are chosen or who choose to join a specific priesthood. Anyone that is not part of the priesthood is clearly lacking something that they have.

So the question is, if I contrive a scenario where another character is trying to impinge on the cleric's niche in a way that seems reasonable and justified in the game but is not supported by the rules, which consideration wins out? Do we say that only divine classes can heal because that's how this class-based system works and other people don't get to steal their stuff, or do we say that the character's faith matters more than his build?

Based on the character's devoutness, and assuming that he isn't constantly praying for his deity to intervene on his behalf, I'd give him decent odds that his deity intercedes.

I did not state that, but yes, I'm assuming that the fighter is not spamming the heavens with constant help requests. He saved it for a time when he really needed it.

 

[Fanaelialae]

So the question is, if I contrive a scenario where another character is trying to impinge on the cleric's niche in a way that seems reasonable and justified in the game but is not supported by the rules, which consideration wins out? Do we say that only divine classes can heal because that's how this class-based system works and other people don't get to steal their stuff, or do we say that the character's faith matters more than his build?

I don't think that niche protection needs to be so tightly defined that no one outside that niche can ever possibly succeed. A mid to high level cleric can throw miracles around like they're going out of style. If you give a devout character a rare intervention when they really need it, I can't see anyone getting upset over it.

On a related note, for similar reasons, I really hated the rule in 3rd that only allowed rogues to find traps that had a DC over 20. I typically house ruled it so that anyone could find traps but a rogue could simply do so better.