The price of a horse.

aramis erak

Legend
Gygax grabbed his prices from domesday survey and a few other period sources. Most people put things in D&D coinage modes.

Note that a typical 1 shilling coin was the gold penny... gp. Tho' sometimes it hit as high as 20 d worth.

(The English gold penny was about 10-12 kt... )

D&D coinage was decimalized, but roughly:
1 cp = halffathing (1/8 d. - but the coinweight would be worth 1/10 that...)
1 sp = silver penny - baseline coin. also called the denarius, abbreviated d.
1 gp = gold penny at lowest values... roughly a shilling (12 d.)

Using 10th to 12th century sources, the conversion from libra (240 d.) to shillings (12 d) should be x20

Medieval specie values typically are about 1:15:1000 for gold:silver:copper.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Gygax grabbed his prices from domesday survey and a few other period sources. Most people put things in D&D coinage modes.

Note that a typical 1 shilling coin was the gold penny... gp. Tho' sometimes it hit as high as 20 d worth.

(The English gold penny was about 10-12 kt... )

D&D coinage was decimalized, but roughly:
1 cp = halffathing (1/8 d. - but the coinweight would be worth 1/10 that...)
1 sp = silver penny - baseline coin. also called the denarius, abbreviated d.
1 gp = gold penny at lowest values... roughly a shilling (12 d.)

Using 10th to 12th century sources, the conversion from libra (240 d.) to shillings (12 d) should be x20

Medieval specie values typically are about 1:15:1000 for gold:silver:copper.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shilling_(British_coin) said:
The shilling (1/-) was a coin worth one twentieth of a pound sterling, or twelve pence. It was first minted in the reign of Henry VII as the testoon, and became known as the shilling from the Old English scilling,[1] sometime in the mid-sixteenth century, circulating until 1990. The word bob was sometimes used for a monetary value of several shillings, e.g. "ten bob note". Following decimalisation in 1970 the coin had a value of five new pence. It was made from silver from its introduction in or around 1503 until 1947, and thereafter in cupronickel.
Most sources of information on the medieval age are wrong, I am sorry to say. Sometimes grossly so.

It is possible that it is Wikipedia that is wrong in this case, but as far as I know, external testing has validated Wikipedia's factual accuracy in the sciences.
 

Brandegoris

First Post
Setting is important too. if it is an Asian setting Horses are very rare and expensive( even riding horses). Also if you are simply doing standard European setting a WARHORSE is ridiculously expensive. losing a warhorse could ruin a knight because they were so expensive to replace.
Sometimes I also think of it in terms of modern day: A Riding Horse should cost relatively whatever it costs someone today to buy an Automobile?
So a year of wages wouldn't be outlandish ( maybe more for a really nice horse)?
 

raleel

Explorer
Mythras has a Freeman's yearly income as somewhere between 750-3750 silver pieces, and a riding horse is 2500 for a reasonable quality one. Poor quality is half that, and draft horses are a bit more than riding.

Potentially. Quite pricey :)
 

Celebrim

Legend
There are several things to consider.

1) Not all horses were created equal. Are we talking a nag suitable only for pulling carts and destined in not too long for the knacker's block, a draft horse for the plow, a lady's riding palfrey, a good quality rounser, a courser for use in battle, or a knight's well breed drestier for use in tournaments? Prices could be very different depending on what we were talking about. Talking about the price of a horse even today is problematic, and it was even more so in the medieval era. It would be like assuming that a Honda Civic and a Ferrari have the same customer base and prices.
2) It's also worth noting that recorded prices of goods are fairly rare, and so most compiled lists you see have prices covering a span of centuries. Well, inflation and deflation aren't strictly modern phenomena, and in particular were effected by the local availability of 'coin' - silver and gold. The general trend though was perhaps 50% inflation per century, so prices always have to be compared to the local prevailing wages to determine prices in terms of constant units. Even this can be misleading, because industrialization throughout the period changed which jobs were considered 'high skill' or 'high demand', meaning that it's hard to look at any one profession and determine overall trend lines in wages.
3) To make matters worse, you are seeing all of this filtered through the lens of D&D, which has infamously maintained two separate price lists basically since the Gygax era - a 'realistic' price list for NPCs and a 'gamist' price list for PC's designed to drain off wealth and keep acquisitions in balance. The realistic price list - taxation, wages for non-expert hirlings, costs of non-adventuring gear - tends to be prices in silver pieces based off historical data. The gamist price list - adventuring gear, cost of lairs, costs of expert hirlings - tends to be based off of gold pieces and set by game considerations. So when you try to answer, "What should a horse cost?", you are trying to translate for one economy (the NPC economy) to the other (the PC economy).

We could go really deep into medieval economics to try to answer that question, but I personally have found that in the long run that's impractical. It also ignores that most D&D world's aren't remotely medieval and have access to highly advanced technology that would totally change medieval economics. This is true regardless of how medieval your trappings get - consider the available 'health care' technology of a D&D world, or the available technology implied by all those mechanical traps found in dungeons, or what a druid implies about agricultural technology, and so on and so forth. Essentially the D&D world is a world where all the medieval understanding of 'physics', medicine, chemistry and so forth is basically true.

Instead, what I find is a more useful method is to note that the price of produce, livestock, hand made goods, and really anything that isn't directly manufactured by machines is reasonably constant over time to within an acceptable degree (certainly within the margin created by the assumption magic is real and effective). So what you can do is take the price of a cow or a horse or a hand tooled leather saddle or jewelry on etsy or Amish made furniture whatever it that you are looking at, and divide that price by some assumption about wealth (ordinary people make the equivalent of $50 a day give or take depending on how wealthy you want your society to be), and produce a price in 'day wages' for the item. You can then make a simple assumption about what a day's wages are - 1 silver piece for example - to produce a price.

This works really well across the board IME any time you need a price quickly (and have Google to hand), and the only thing you have to do is introduce a multiplier of some sort (x3 works pretty well) if you suspect the price is suppressed by some industrial factor. For example, you can assume fight grade plate mail is worth perhaps 1/3rd of what it once costed because while most is still handmade, the cost of steel itself is greatly reduced because it can be made in an industrial fashion very cheaply. So, you might notice a handmade steel helmet runs $200-$1000 dollars on ebay, and translate this quickly to 12 s.p. - 60 s.p. And you might quickly compute that this means that it probably took a medieval craftsman 4-15 days to make it by assuming he's earning about 3 s.p. a day. Will you be wrong? Almost certainly! But you won't be that wrong, and you certainly won't be as wrong as I've seen some people be either relying on D&D prices or trying to reconstruct the whole of a medieval economy based on scant and often erroneous evidence.

Doing this for horses, I'm seeing horses in D&D's 'riding horse' to 'light warhorse' category running between $1000 and $6000. That translate to 40-120 days wages under my simple conversion, and which is 40-120 s.p. under my other simple conversion (or 40-120 g.p. for most tables, since most tables use "treasure is in gold" standards). Am I spot on correct? Probably not. Do I care? Not really. I'm close enough. By the same standards, I figure a PC will spend about 10-20 s.p. a month in upkeep for the horse, unless he owns his own good pasture land and doesn't do a lot of travelling.
 
Last edited:

Celebrim

Legend
How much do you think a horse should cost? I am talking about a regular riding/work horse. Not one trained for battle or a race horse.

I am assuming that a commoner makes about 12.5cp per day of economic output. 7cp gets taxed in most locations. It requires 5cp to live at a subsistence level.

I was thinking that a horse would be worth about a month’s worth of untaxed income which would make it worth 375cp.

Does this sound reasonable.

In most cases, a medieval peasant only paid about 1/3rd of their income in taxes. Taxes only reached 50% of their income in Eastern Europe, where peasants tended to be more oppressed and had fewer rights. Your 12 c.p. per day might be about right, but they were probably paying only about 4 c.p. per day in taxes. You might be about right regarding 5 c.p. per day for subsistence, leaving a profit of 3 c.p. per day (or 1 c.p. per day in high tax regions).

If that profit seems high to you. What you are neglecting is that the economy is agricultural, and so this assumes 'the weather is good' and 'the crops don't fail'. The medieval peasant wasn't in bad shape as long as that remained true, and had enough profit on his farm to weather a bad year every few years. The problems got critical in a hurry though when that wasn't true. The problem was exacerbated by the fact that taxes were negotiated fixed sums, and not percentages of income or expenditures, and so whether a good year or a bad year, taxes were supposed to be paid first and you lived off of what was left over.
 

Brandegoris

First Post
In most cases, a medieval peasant only paid about 1/3rd of their income in taxes. Taxes only reached 50% of their income in Eastern Europe, where peasants tended to be more oppressed and had fewer rights. Your 12 c.p. per day might be about right, but they were probably paying only about 4 c.p. per day in taxes. You might be about right regarding 5 c.p. per day for subsistence, leaving a profit of 3 c.p. per day (or 1 c.p. per day in high tax regions).

If that profit seems high to you. What you are neglecting is that the economy is agricultural, and so this assumes 'the weather is good' and 'the crops don't fail'. The medieval peasant wasn't in bad shape as long as that remained true, and had enough profit on his farm to weather a bad year every few years. The problems got critical in a hurry though when that wasn't true. The problem was exacerbated by the fact that taxes were negotiated fixed sums, and not percentages of income or expenditures, and so whether a good year or a bad year, taxes were supposed to be paid first and you lived off of what was left over.

In actuality Depending on time period most peasents never really saw coinage. They were "Paid" ( Nit a correct term really) in goods
 

Celebrim

Legend
In actuality Depending on time period most peasents never really saw coinage. They were "Paid" ( Nit a correct term really) in goods

You are of course correct. I didn't want to make the post longer than it had to be. One of the essential features of a true medieval economy is that it is a barter economy because there is insufficient coin to reflect all the economic activity that the society is engaged in. Not only are they paid in goods, but they make payment in goods. So for example, they don't have to pay taxes of some amount of coins. They pay taxes in some amount of bushels of wheat, some amount of wooden staves, some amount of cut firewood, some amount of time spent working the Lord's land, and some amount of spun wool. Each householder would individually negotiate taxes with the land lord based on the perceived productivity of the property and the skills of the householder.

The Doomsday Book is extremely enlightening in this regard, because it often lists out the individual contracts and so gives us far more insight into the lives of the people than a simple census would. So we find example of serfs who are independently wealthy and possibly wealthier in some cases than the landlord, women who have higher legal status than their husbands and are so treated as heads of household, and so on and so forth. The real world is incredibly more complex than any simple model of it.

Europe exits the medieval economy when it acquires enough coin that lords can start dispensing with those private contractual obligations, and simply ask each householder to pay a lump sum of coin. Likewise, lords no longer had to collect taxes from lesser lords by forcing them to serve in the army, but could instead just ask them to send money to pay for an army. This lead to centralization of power in the hands of the monarchies, and the end of the feudal system (although, it wouldn't completely die for centuries). Of course, this is also a vast simplification, as we've said nothing of the role of cities and monasteries in revolutionizing the economy.
 
Last edited:

Antonlowe

First Post
There have been some really interesting responses to this thread. Thank you all.

Currently I am doing a major rebuild of 5e for my own personal use. I wanted to give some thought about how the economy works.

Its “simulationist” in the sense that I try to come up with some basic rules and then see what that would actually mean, if the world worked based on those rules. Not in the sense that I am trying to recreate an accurate simulation of England Circa 1067.

The first rule I came up with to be the basis of the economy is that
“A person can spend the day Earning a Living. They roll a d20 add proficiency bonus if appropriate, and earn the result in copper pieces”.

That’s where I came up with the 12.5cp per day.
Next I decided upon some basics for costs of living. A person with no other concerns ought to be well off, with a little of extra pocket money they could spend on luxuries or capital investment. You could survive on half that much, but it would suck. You could spend more to maintain a particular lifestyle, if you wanted to…..

>5cp per day = Wretched (disadvantage on all downtime checks)
5cp per day = Subsistence (disadvantage on all downtime checks except Earning a Living)
10cp per day = Well off (no modifiers)
50cp per day = Arriostocratic

I used those two rules to come up with a basic tax system. Most nobles want to get as much as they can out of their peasants. So they set the taxation rate at a level where the peasants can live at a subsistence level. This is common, but not monolithic.
A ‘happy’ kingdom will probably set the tax rate at 2cp per day.
I assume that most people will spend all of their money on living expenses until they reach well off (10cp per day). At which point they will start to diverge.
 

The problem with "Hollywood inaccuracy" is not that we don't know that movies are fake, but that when faced with the question of, then, what the facts are, the majority of the population is left with little idea of what the facts might be.

Fortunately, the internet can be used as a vital source of information; unfortunately, it can also be used as a source of disinformation. As I was *told by a friend without a background in science, how do they sort the fraud from the fact, when the facts can sound as **fantastical, or more fantastical, than the fraud? It is easy to say "learn science, and thereby learn what is plausible", but when one does not know which sources might be correct or incorrect in the first place, it becomes much more difficult. Sadly, also, "schooling", such as it is, often teaches only rote memorization and regurgitation.

* The words are mine, the meaning is theirs.

** Current research efforts include monkeys controlling robotic limbs through electrodes implanted in their brains, which sounds like the plot of a science fiction B-movie, but is real research in progress right now. And when I inform you that reall humans without arms have been able to strap on prosthetic, cybernetic arms due to this research...
 

Remove ads

Top