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The Problem of Evil [Forked From Ampersand: Wizards & Worlds]

S'mon

Legend
My 20+ years of experience with all sorts of players tells me this. A DM that has never see a person die...

I try to avoid this stuff in real life - I saw someone dying recently, a cyclist, they'd been run over by a lorry (truck) near my house, and the medics were trying to save them. The crushed bicycle was under the lorry. I walked on, I found out they'd died a few days later.

I guess as I get older I tend to want to avoid horror in my games as well as in real life.
 

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DarkKestral

First Post
I think I like a bit of moral relativism, even in my cosmic evil, at least for sentient evils. That's not to say that they aren't necessarily beings it's a good idea to not kill, if it comes down either to killing them or letting them continue their plans... it's just that perhaps, even capital E Evil can be redeemed. It may not be a quick redemption, or even likely, but perhaps it's possible. After all, what can change the nature of a man? Quite a bit, really. People do things for love, or due to horror, often out of fear, and occasionally because of random kindness and seeing the joy that results. They may start small, but even in our world, they have been shown to cause amazing things.

And for lesser evils, like orcs, it's not necessarily so much a matter of genetics so much as culture and upbringing. Perhaps the orcs are treated badly, even those raised by humans and therefore know the ins and outs of being a member of the local human village, and so end up hating the people who despise them. Plus, there's always at least three sides to every story, even one where there are only two people. There's the winner's story, the loser's story, and the truth which is generally a mix of both.

The thing is, I think heroic fantasy can co-exist nicely with a somewhat morally relativist world. There can be things which are almost universally regarded as being evil... like say killing for pleasure or money, kidnapping, or torture... That means PCs can be heroes without being "perfect" in any sense of the means. It also means they can be villains without being mustache-twirlers either. Perhaps they are too committed to a cause to care about the damage they're causing or have caused, or maybe they simply haven't thought about the consequences of their actions.

The trick is knowing where to place the line. And having game mechanics that depend heavily on where you are in relation to that line is a problem because the line is a bit blurry and indistinct. The fact is, it's entirely plausible that good characters will disagree on the orc baby problem. In fact, it's pretty likely that such characters will occasionally have arguments like that, because being Good generally requires in part that one be willing to engage in a self-examination of one's behavior and a willingness to check oneself and keep from going too far, and due to differences in upbringing and culture, it's likely no one will agree entirely on where that line is. It's generally only evil characters that don't care about such things, but that's because they've generally adopted a position that only their opinion matters and theirs is the only or one of a few lives worth anything, and such a position means that one will feel such issues aren't worth caring about.

So if you want your heroic fantasy to remain heroic fantasy yet have a few aspects of moral relativism, have the PCs go up against obviously morally wrong individuals most of the time. It's just that occasionally, you show how the orcs aren't totally evil, and perhaps the orc raids are as much the villagers' fault as they are the orcs'. Just enough to bring some ambiguity.

And the thing is, D&D's ripe for such ambiguity. It owes just as much debt to Conan as it does Frodo. And even the Silmarillion, the Hobbit and LotR, possibly the most famous works of modern heroic fantasy ever (I'm not sure if Harry Potter counts) and certainly two of those works upon which rests all of the genre as it is today, has elves that end up being greedy murderers solely out of their own desires, and one of the most well-known evil characters redeemed somewhat out of a desire to change, albeit imperfectly so. Likewise, Conan spends his time doing good at least as often as he does evil. So why must D&D worlds be places where good and evil are totally objective forces? Sauron, Morgoth, and Saruman are evil because they choose to value their desires over the well-being of others. The orcs of LotR are evil because they are twisted until they enjoy inflicting pain and causing sorrow, not because there was a force that said, "Here is the line between Good and Evil. Do Not Cross." The thing is, as the heroes of LotR generally only face evils which are truly evil, the tone remains rooted in heroic fantasy. There's hints of moral relativism there, but they're not used in such a way that it becomes a totally morally relativist world. There is still a clear sense of purpose and right and wrong, but the whole world does not have so much clarity of good and evil, beyond the choices various individuals make. Look at the central plot behind the Hobbit: a bunch of dwarves decide to go steal a treasure for no real reason at all other than they want it. That is not a Good act. It is, at best, Neutral. And that only because Smaug is so clearly Evil. Admittedly, there is a force of absolute Good in the setting, but the being is largely impersonal and not a central part of the saga of the elves, humans, dwarves and hobbits that comprise the LotR sagas. Likewise, Conan's world is generally morally relativist, and again we see that there's some room for heroic fantasy there. So clearly, they can co-exist. The real question, at least in D&D is thus "For best play, should you let absolute evil exist?"
 

Rechan

Adventurer
The trick is knowing where to place the line. And having game mechanics that depend heavily on where you are in relation to that line is a problem because the line is a bit blurry and indistinct. The fact is, it's entirely plausible that good characters will disagree on the orc baby problem.

Good men can do bad things for the right reasons. Bad men can do good things for the wrong reasons. And being good doesn't prevent one from lapsing, and being bad doesn't prevent one from seeing reason.

There's an addage for writers when it comes to antagonists: Every villain is a hero in his own book. To him, he is completely justified, and doing the right thing. But the story is usually from the protagonist's perspective. The less overtly Black the villain is, the more interesting he is - some of the most interesting antagonists aren't even evil, they are merely competing or have conflicting goals with the antagonist. If the story was slightly different, the two would be allies.

That's part of the reason that Black and White doesn't do much for me: it breaks my suspension of disbelief. If something is too easily defined, then it feels fake. It comes across, to me, as just wishful thinking. Things just aren't that easy. The other part is it's boring to me. The Hero is Good, he will always be Good, and Good triumphs because it's nice that way. There's not a lot of room for complexity and depth. Superman vs. Watchmen.
 

Scott_Rouse

Explorer
There are so many ways that I want to answer this post that I think it may take me multiple posts. The most important point I think I can make is this. Unless the DM or campaign designer has the dramatic construction talents of Shakespeare, any attempt to create serious reflection will fall far short of inducing thought-provoking questions on evil and morality.

My 20+ years of experience with all sorts of players tells me this. A DM that has never see a person die, unlocked a house only to find the former occupant decaying on the couch, or ever pointed a loaded weapon at some else in anger or defense cannot seriously set up a situation that would induce thought-provoking emotions before a laugh from me.

With 4e you have tried to make the game easier and more fun to play. That was one of the design goals right? So you want to take EVIL out of the equation in an effort to provoke an "ah-ha" moment of reflection. In my experience that only forces the dice to rest on the table while a player argues with the DM about why he shouldn't lose his paladin status for killing an orc baby.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the holiest of sacred cows in D&D is its Heroic Fantasy base. It is not Warhammer Fantasy, It is not Paranoia. Your moral relativism would have us question if Tharizdun cultists are just misguided and need to be reeducated. A Lawful Good paladin cannot go into a Tharizdun temple and start slaughtering cultists just because that's the adventure the DM comes up with, just like he cannot go killing orc babies.

I understand that others enjoy the character development that occurs when characters and their players are presented with difficult moral questions. Thats cool for them, but not for me. Moral questions generally get in the way of XP and beer.


You do understand I am writing about what I want and not as where we are taking the future of the game, right?

Consider me insulted and done with the thread. :confused:
 

ProfessorPain

First Post
Good men can do bad things for the right reasons. Bad men can do good things for the wrong reasons. And being good doesn't prevent one from lapsing, and being bad doesn't prevent one from seeing reason.

There's an addage for writers when it comes to antagonists: Every villain is a hero in his own book. To him, he is completely justified, and doing the right thing. But the story is usually from the protagonist's perspective. The less overtly Black the villain is, the more interesting he is - some of the most interesting antagonists aren't even evil, they are merely competing or have conflicting goals with the antagonist. If the story was slightly different, the two would be allies.

That's part of the reason that Black and White doesn't do much for me: it breaks my suspension of disbelief. If something is too easily defined, then it feels fake. It comes across, to me, as just wishful thinking. Things just aren't that easy. The other part is it's boring to me. The Hero is Good, he will always be Good, and Good triumphs because it's nice that way. There's not a lot of room for complexity and depth. Superman vs. Watchmen.

But the thing is, this isn't the villain's book, it is the heroes'. Not saying there shouldn't be some gray, but for me, nothing beats a really bad, bad guy.
 

Mae

First Post
Usually favoring characters who are some sort of divine champions inclined to do good, and not being a DM myself, I find this thread refreshing. From my own meager experience, I tried to find what sort of world the DM has in mind when making a character, and have him educate me on the particulars my character might know. If belonging to a sect or a church, I wanted to know of any possible enmities the PC should be aware of as a member of the aforementioned sect/church, striving to incorporate it in play. When the character had no such ties, I simply focuse on my own partymates and the challenges presented. Usually it became clear that things are not as simple as they seemed to be... which lead to some interesting RP-moments.

Within my first group we had many debates on the nature of evil, but one debate definetly stands out in my mind. We ended up discussing how a current position or state of affairs may influence one's behavior, and ended agreeing that even a truly evil dragon would treat his offspring with love, affection and utmost care - regardless of being a mighty, menacing threat that should be swiftly dealt with in the eyes of the others. It's just a special case scenario for the dragon. So, to the dragonhunters he's still a viable target and a challenging monster they should survive an encounter with, but to the hatchling the same dragon's just a protective, caring parent. Therefore, even if the dragon gave hell to the ignorant travellers and helpless peasants on his usual day, we agreed that any threat or actual harm to the hatchling would cause a vengeful retibution out of the usual proportions, and the dragon's parental role would probably be the true motive for it. We might have been mistaken, of course... it happens. ;)

[snip] Which is the Sect is the True one? No one knows. Oh sure, each sect thinks they have it right. Thus, you have disagreements in the Church, and the different Sects can cause inter-faith wars or schisms, etc. It could even be the Duty of one sect to keep another sect in check, and so on.

You made me dig up a write-up of FR deity Kelemvor I found when I did some browsing after finishing the Avatar series. Were I to DM the Realms, I'd base the deity off it: I find it both believeable and intriguing.
 

pawsplay

Hero
I don't get where people come from thinking D&D has always been about moral absolutes. I mean, this is a game that had Thief as a character class. Half of the famous AD&D reading list features morally ambiguous protagonists. Paladins are supposed to be morally absolute, but even then, it's understood they have a tough job to do in a world full of real evil.
 

ProfessorPain

First Post
I don't get where people come from thinking D&D has always been about moral absolutes. I mean, this is a game that had Thief as a character class. Half of the famous AD&D reading list features morally ambiguous protagonists. Paladins are supposed to be morally absolute, but even then, it's understood they have a tough job to do in a world full of real evil.

And the thief is meant to reflect the chaotic part of the alignment spectrum. Since D&D it has been pretty much about moral absolutes. That doesn't mean there can't be nuance within each given alignment, and it certainly doesn't mean people need to go around playing lawful stupid chracters, but the rules as written have always embraced a view where alignment reflects larger cosmic forces and how you are 'aligned' with them. Personally, I have taken a much more middle of the road approach in my own games. In high fantasy and operatic campaigns the system works just fine, but I have to admit, I have never really been a fan of it. Not a moral relativist by any stretch, (ed: in fact most moral relativists I have met are not true moral relativists, as their moral relativism is grounded in fundamental moral assumptions about power, fairness, equality and exploitation), but I do like texture to my characters. In my campaigns, evil and good exist, most people think they are doing good. Very few actively set out to perform evil deeds (though this does happen when you have Evil Gods at work). Still, at the end of the day, everyone's actions are viewed through a moral lens.
 

Oligopsony

Explorer
I don't get where people come from thinking D&D has always been about moral absolutes. I mean, this is a game that had Thief as a character class. Half of the famous AD&D reading list features morally ambiguous protagonists. Paladins are supposed to be morally absolute, but even then, it's understood they have a tough job to do in a world full of real evil.
D&D's always had an interesting thematic tension between high fantasy and S&S - which you see most prominently in all the talk of heroism and defeating Evil in a game about murdering people and looting their corpses. I'm not sure the authorial intent is for these all to go into one game - contrast with Exalted, for instance, where the use of high-flowing language to describe vicious actions is deliberately ironic - but just to keep both options open. Ravenloft demands one morality and Dark Sun another.

4e seems to swing more towards the S&S side of the spectrum, which of course makes me happy.
 

pawsplay

Hero
D&D's always had an interesting thematic tension between high fantasy and S&S - which you see most prominently in all the talk of heroism and defeating Evil in a game about murdering people and looting their corpses. I'm not sure the authorial intent is for these all to go into one game -

That is what I have generally assumed. Save the world, make a buck, try to muddle out of some really dubious legal and moral situations. A given party might have a mix of a number of alignments. The Dragonlance stories seemed to be written under this premise; high fantasy, but with plenty of interesting things going on morally. I think you can definitely see that tension in the Arthurian mythos, which is an ancestor to both genres. Arthur led his knights in conquest and glory, but eventually undertook a spiritual quest in order to restore his kingdom. In my mind, the thematic tension was written in.
 

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