The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Edena_of_Neith]

The cliche goes: be careful what you ask for. You might just get it.
The leadership and some of the peoples of the nations of the Flanaess asked for war. They got it: the land itself made war on them, retching from the blood spilled upon it, tearing itself apart in convulsions.
Then Vecna came and spilled more blood, much more, and the lands all reeled, collapsing, heaving, spewing forth roaring heat and fire in protest, so that the modern Flanaess little resembles the old setting.

 

[Shadeydm]

(muses)

Looking at the detailed history given above, I see a pattern:

The victors were nations and peoples who:

- Had good leadership and good generals (who knew their strategy and tactics well.)
- Had a large number of soldiers to throw into the war
- Were persistent in fighting wars

I note that, as written, more advanced weapons did not win the wars, necessarily.

The Gauls who sacked Rome were in great number and very persistent.
Rome took Gaul and Britain under an accomplished general, with perseverence and huge numbers.
The Germans destroyed two Roman Legions because they had fine leadership. Rome declined to pursue the war.
Greece fell to Rome in one of the Ten Battles of the World, when the legion proved superior to the phlanx.
Rome finally fell due to internal weakness and the perseverence and numbers of barbarian invaders.
Charlemagne was an able leader and general, making successful war on the Germanic tribes.
The Vikings were extremely perseverent (practically making a new definition to the word), developed a new kind of ship that acted as a superb weapon of war, and employed novel techniques of war. This enabled them to attack or settle from the northern Russian coast through Normandy to Gibraltor to Asia Minor.
Then the Mongols got into the act with novel ways of waging war, novel ways of transporting food and goods, and relentless perseverence. And they almost wiped out Eurasia.
Novgorod was saved by luck and strategic position. The Mongols were stopped short of the city by swamps. The teutonic knights lost when the ice on a lake broke under their weight.



What decided the Solistari War?

1: Leadership.
2: Luck.
3: Sheer firepower.
4: Perseverence (or lack of it)
5: Sheer numbers.

6: The DM decided to trash his setting by allowing The "empire" to gate in to throne rooms and inner sanctums and slay leaders of the world. (DO you really not see an inherintly large problem with this in a fantasy setting?)
So perhaps instad of the problem with elves the thread should be the problem with my whole setting?
I'm sorry perhaps I just need to stop reading this thread Edena your posts about what you did to your setting make me want to scratch my eyes out yet I keep coming back to read more lol.

 

[fusangite]

Edena,

It's kind of odd -- I made some more suggestions about your campaign and you did not respond to them

What I was suggesting was that not everybody in Delrune would act the same way. Depending on one's social position there, one might choose different survival strategies. For instance, elvish widows might try to marry into nearby human aristocracies. Elvish warriors might creat mercenary legion that work for the highest bidder. And the nobles and notables of Delrune might offer to become a vassal state to a more powerful state, perhaps sweetening the deal with some territory, widows, gold or luxury goods. Itinerant crafter/tinker guilds could emerge, working seasonally outside Delrun and returning during planting and harvest.

Anyway, just some random thoughts. Feel free to utilize or discard as you like.

but you did respond to my critique of Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs and Steel.

I'm not sure what to make of your long treatise on disease in your campaign except to say: it is clear that, like most D&D worlds, your game world handles disease differently than the real world does. And that's good, as it should be. So, the question then becomes: if how disease works in your campaign is your decision, why come up with a theory of disease that turns around and screws the elves again? Why not come up with a theory of disease that doesn't hurt the elves?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

6: The DM decided to trash his setting by allowing The "empire" to gate in to throne rooms and inner sanctums and slay leaders of the world. (DO you really not see an inherintly large problem with this in a fantasy setting?)
So perhaps instad of the problem with elves the thread should be the problem with my whole setting?
I'm sorry perhaps I just need to stop reading this thread Edena your posts about what you did to your setting make me want to scratch my eyes out yet I keep coming back to read more lol.

Of course powerful nations going into Total War pull this stunt (Gating or Teleporting Without Error or Teleporting or Teleporting Spells/Monsters into enemy thronerooms and bedchambers, etc., etc., etc.)
King Belvor of Furyondy, Archcleric Hazen of Veluna, and King Arlon of Calrune, among others, *expected* such things to happen. There were defenses readied.

But then the Greyhawk Wars occurred, and their attention went to Iuz, Ket, and the Giant Incursions. They concentrated their magics and efforts on those threats.

They were beaten and killed by four factors:

- The Solistarim achieved total surprise.
- The Solistarim had extremely fine Intelligence gathering, and knew exactly where to strike.
- The Solistarim brought their most powerful magic to bear, magic capable of crushing the defenses and protections around enemy leaders and bases.
- The Solistarim launched a very coordinated attack, hitting everywhere at once, so those under attack could not come to each other's aid.

If King Belvor, Archcleric Hazen, and King Arlon had set up an equally planned out defense, had an equally coordinated defense ready, had their strongest magics and wizards in place, and if they had *known* the attack was coming and nature of the attackers, the result might have been far different.

Once the governments of Furyondy, Veluna, and Calrune were destroyed, the two largest western nations opposing the Solistarim were effectively out of the fight, their armies leaderless and in total confusion.
Strikes on Perrenland easily neutralized that country's government, since Perrenland was far less well equipped to deal with such a threat. The strike on Chautosbergen actually failed (to kill the ruling family and councillors) and killed many thousands of dwarves instead.
The strike on Delphea, capital of Delrune, was all too easy. King Callanne Narisae was a man of peace, his guard was small, his secret service nil, his magic weak, his preparations non-existent. The Delrunian government was obliterated in the first strike.

It was only after the Solistarim had done all they could to neutralize the enemy leadership, kill all the known generals and other military leaders, and thus leave the western nations in chaos, and after their friends the Skydwellers were on the way to war against the eastern and central nations (a nice diversion, and that is exactly what the Solistarim allied with the Skydwellers to achieve), the Solistarim launched their swift Ground Assault.

-

I made a mistake in quoting my timeline, and wish to rectify it.

The Greyhawk Wars went as per Canon, taking about 3 or 4 years.
The subsequent exhausted peace lasted around 15 years. Then the Solistari War commenced.

The Solistari First Strike occurred over a period of a few days.
The Solistari Second and subsequent Strikes occurred over a period of a few weeks.
The Ground Onslaught took several months, before the battle lines stablized in Keoland.
The war, after that, went on for several years.
After the death of Soloron, the Solistari retreat took a few weeks.
The Great Assault of the Allies on the Godspires went on for months.
The Counterassault of the Solistarim lasted for several months.
Then the war ended, around 5 years after it started.

Delrune spent 20 years in limbo after that, turning to evil.

The Onslaught of Vecna took about a month to reach Delrune.
The Onslaught of Vecna took several days to destroy Delrune excluding Haldendrea only.

It took 20 years before Vecna recognized the threat of Haldendreeva, and thus the elves there had respite from Vecna for that time.

The Haldendreevan-Vecna War went on for 100 years.

-

There is nothing wrong with the setting.
The people of the Flanaess are led heavily warmongers, just as the people of many other fantasy worlds are, and as some peoples in real life are.
Also, there are a large number of evil races who are inherently warmongers, not only led by warmongers but warmongers down to the last being in the community. The illithid are such a people (in the Flanaess at least.)

Warmongers fight. Nations shatter and fall. Civilian populations are massacred (or retained for food.) The Oerth itself reacts to the bloodshed and reels, with volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, lands rising and fall, the bedrock rotting and crumbling under blood.
The survivors build new civilizations and new nations. They regain their strength. Nations that survived the wars further strengthen themselves. And then - unfortunately - they fight again. For theirs is a world of neverending war.

Paradoxically, Vecna brought a kind of peace. It wasn't a pleasant peace, but it *did* allow many peoples and nations driven to the edge of extinction to come back and at least partially recover.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It was through *leadership, fine generalmanship, and perseverence* that the Solistarim were able to:

- Gather superb intelligence on the enemy.
- Plan a well organized, coordinated strike on enemy leaders.
- Ready, over a long period of time, a colossal arsenal of magic.
- Ready, over a long period of time, a colossal army of monstrous beings.
- Obtain the understandings necessary to use their armies and magic to their fullest effect.
- Undergo the ordeal necessary to restrain so many incompatible evil races, uniting them by force into one people, setting in place Mythal-like structures to control behavior and ensure cooperation (otherwise, just try to get a beholder to cooperate. LOL.)

Leadership, fine military commanders, and perseverence paid off.
Had it not been for the intervention of a cunning enemy leader (the mysterious man from Greyhawk City), who convinced Varnaith and other nations to become involved, and who finally located Soloron and assassinated him in the midst of the great battle, the Solistarim would easily have conquered and completely depopulated the entire western Flanaess and lands west of there, all the way to the borders of the Celestial Imperium off the map westward.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Edena,

It's kind of odd -- I made some more suggestions about your campaign and you did not respond to thembut you did respond to my critique of Jared Diamond's book Guns, Germs and Steel.

I'm not sure what to make of your long treatise on disease in your campaign except to say: it is clear that, like most D&D worlds, your game world handles disease differently than the real world does. And that's good, as it should be. So, the question then becomes: if how disease works in your campaign is your decision, why come up with a theory of disease that turns around and screws the elves again? Why not come up with a theory of disease that doesn't hurt the elves?

Disease didn't pick out the elves in particular.
Disease was a party for everyone. Disease swept across all of Oerik and Hyberborian continents following the Solistari War, and affected the other continents also.

The *important* point is not the disease, but how the elves reacted to it.
While humans and others turned to natural remedies and clerics to stop it, the elves had access to *neither.*
Starvation, disease, infestation, and exposure wracked the surviving elves of Delrune after the Onslaught of Vecna.
*Their* answer was, over a period of 3 years, to become Agnakoks, to become immune to hunger, disease, infestation, and exposure, by eating leaves and bugs and living foes, by supernatural changes in digestion, in supernatural changes to their bodies.
They *achieved this transcendence by embracing the core of what they were, their quintessential elvishness.* In choosing to call upon their primordial elvishness, they found the strength to survive.

Humans could not have done this. Humans, in the place of the surviving elves in the lone remaining city of Haldendrea (flooded 5 feet deep) would have all perished.

The descendants of the Elves of Haldendreeva, the canon elves of my home setting, retain these agnakok abilities and strange tendencies (such as eating leaves, bugs, and lliving foes, not to mention chewing on wood and fresh bones) today. But they are immune to hunger if leaves, bugs, or living foes are available, immune to thirst if any water (no matter how fouled) is present, immune to all normal disease and infestations, and immune to exposure to cold, heat, sunlight, and the like.
Natural insects and animals will not attack the Elves of Haldendreeva (their aura of lifefire drives insects back and awes animals.) Trees and shrubs recognize their power and do not afflict them (they cannot be slapped by a tree branch, or stumble through brambles, or otherwise be hindered by plants.) They cannot stumble or fall or be hampered in any normal terrain or water ... their elvish inner selves brought forth in might have granted them Faerie-like immunities to such natural obstacles or problems.
Detect Life will cause an Elf of Haldendreeva to shine with sunlike force to the caster, as will Detect Magic to a lesser extent. Detect Evil will show strong evil, regardless of the elf's actual alignment, due to the taint of Haldendreeva.
Would a paladin, then, become upset and take issue with that elven girl he detected strong evil on? He had better be well prepared then, if he wishes to start a fight. Because if the taint of Haldendreeva influences the girl, and she wins the battle, she is likely to slowly torture him (for fun, and as a matter of normal procedure), then devour him alive, keeping him alive as long as possible through this process. And be merry and cavalier about it, gently chiding the paladin for trying to kill her, during the whole thing.

Elves of Haldendreeva. They are very gentle, pleasant, loving, good people.
But for the sake of Istus, do not try to kill one, unless you are truly ready for war and battle, in all their awful red glory and gory horror. If you can't handle that, go to the local inn and have a drink instead!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

To Fusangite

Fusangite, could you restate your questions?
I will answer them.

I simply had to write out the Big Picture, as it were, first to answer other's questions.
Now that the Big Picture is out, I can reference it properly to frame responses to your questions.

Ask away!

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

mmadsen is right, you don't seem to see that the PHB gives the basic stats for a member of that race, not a setting or situational basis..

(snip)

You are not looking for a justification that elves are destined to die in a regular setting as first believed, you are asking, how can these elves in my home-brew world survive because they got screwed by war?

If you look at the *large picture* of what I have painted for my home setting, you will see that 'normal' elves of ECL 0 out of the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook are really not suited to that setting.
They tend to get swept up in the great events and cataclysmic wars that sweep the world, and end up exterminated.

Any and all of the ECL 0 races, including humans, have the same problems. And the task of finding a way to survive in spite of their weakness, is their problem and their problem alone: Nobody else is going to help out.
For that matter, races with higher ECLs must find their own answers also. The drow did *not* do so, and Vecna obliterated them. Completely. Finally. Absolutely. Extinct Greyspace wide!

This is not The Land. Thomas Covenant, Ur-Lord and White Gold Wielder, is not going to come along with The Wild Magic That Destroys Peace, and save everyone. (I happen to like Stephen Donaldson's works.)

-

Tolkien created the Institution of Elven Failure, and it haunts books and settings alike today, and the elves just do not seem to be able to escape it.

ANY people who choose to stand as a rock, will ultimately fall.
Mount Everest, will eventually be at the bottom of the ocean.
And elves, in their 'classic' portrayal, from the Noldor to Evermeet to Silvanesti, are extremely bad about trying to stand as rocks.
Even the infamous Melniboneans insist on standing defiant and steady, like a rock, in a tumultuous world.

Seasons come, and seasons go. Nations rise and nations fall. Cultures flourish and cultures fail. The years pass by, and history sweeps along.
In our real world, *no* nation or people or culture that stood like a rock has *ever* survived (except modern cultures that haven't had time to be destroyed or fall yet.)
Examples of fallen cultures, lost through time or war, abound: Sumeria, the Ancient Egyptians, the People of the Indus Valley, the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Ancient Persians, the Etrucians, the Gauls, the Druids, the Celts, the Roman Empire itself, the Parthians, the Vikings (after their victories, came their decline and absorption), countless peoples swept away in the Mongol Invasion - and then the Mongols themselves faded and were absorbed, and so on.

The elves - the 'classic' elves - seek to defy the reality of history, and remain as stawart, unchanging, rocklike, holding out their own form of light to illuminate the world around them.
And they fail and fall. For history is greater than the elves, and it's mandates are stronger than they.
Even Netheril could not avoid the dictates of history. Eventually, even the greatest nations and highest pinnacles fall. (As I said, one day Mount Everest will be at the bottom of the ocean. It was at the bottom of the ocean not too long ago.)

My Elves of Haldendreeva are *aware* of this reality, of the reality of the changing world, the sweep of history, the inevitability of change, the unrelenting threat of war, and the necessity of adaptation.
That is why they have their supernatural mental will, supernatural spiritual strength, and truly supernatural desire to continue living. (In modern Haldendreevan elves, this love of life applies to other life, as the elven nature asserts itself over the Haldendreevan taint.)

They developed this strength out of horrific hardship, when they discovered no other way existed to survive, and turning to their primordial *elven* selves was the answer.
Had they continued to pursue *this* course, and not turn to magical spells as humans would (and thus start the madness of the Haldendreevan Wars) perhaps they might have evolved into another race, or even back into the Faerie from which elves are descended. They might have transcended reality in an elvish way, and defied Vecna in that manner, instead of twisting reality with human spells and human means.
But after the Ritual, cast in good faith, things went wrong, and the elves took the wrong answer to the threat from Vecna.

The Elves of Haldendreeva today, mostly free of the taint, strive to find that better answer.

-

So are ECL 0 3rd Edition elves doomed?

In my home setting, yes.
In the canon settings, no but they are having a lousy time of it.
In the books? Sometimes, sometimes they merely have a lousy time of it, and in a few cases they triumph. Tolkien's legacy remains, but authors write as they choose.
In your home campaign? Your elves can survive if you want them to. That's a truism.

And yet ... the logic of history, the inexorability of it's sweeping power, do seem to doom all elves. It's in the Big Picture I drew. It's implied in real world history. It's implied in countless fantasy histories, which are derived from real history. It's implied in the canon settings. It's implied in countless home settings, regardless of the DM's conceptions (!)

Elves must be truly *special* people, to transcend history and fate and change and all adversary, and remain for truly long periods of time (tens of thousands of years or longer) within the weave of fate.

(muses)

 

[fusangite]

Fusangite, could you restate your questions?

I didn't have any. I just wanted to remind you that I had attempted to make some constructive suggestions because I'm hoping we can stop arguing with one another.

You seemed to want to hear from people about how elves could respond to a demographic disaster so I threw out a few ideas. If they aren't useful, I won't be offended.

 

[Jim Hague]

So are ECL 0 3rd Edition elves doomed?

In my home setting, yes.

And pretty much confined to that, since you've stacked the deck against them...

In the canon settings, no but they are having a lousy time of it.

Nope. Once again, despite multiple posts to the contrary, you're viewing it through your own fractured logic and not the actual rules or settings. Elves seem to be doing quite well in the majority of settings, canon and not. Of course, since you keep cherry picking your facts, you claim the contrary...even if it isn't true at all.

In the books? Sometimes, sometimes they merely have a lousy time of it, and in a few cases they triumph. Tolkien's legacy remains, but authors write as they choose.

Heaven forfend that writers write elves in some way other than Tolkien did. And here you're contradicting yourself...again. First they're doomed, then they're having a 'lousy time', then you admit that it's just your own interpretation that flies in the face of contradicting and frankly more persuasive facts.

In your home campaign? Your elves can survive if you want them to. That's a truism.

But wait, this is just a set up for...

And yet ... the logic of history, the inexorability of it's sweeping power, do seem to doom all elves. It's in the Big Picture I drew. It's implied in real world history. It's implied in countless fantasy histories, which are derived from real history. It's implied in the canon settings. It's implied in countless home settings, regardless of the DM's conceptions (!)

This is a load of hooey. Dozens of posters have repeatedly provided contraevidence to your claims, but you stick to your thesis despite that. And implied in real world history? Really? Now you're claiming that there were elves on Earth? And I'm sorry, but fantasy histories are not necessarily some outgrowth of real history. And, of course, as with most of your posts, you contradict yourself again - DMs have elves that survive...but you, with your self-professed insight into the minds of said DMs, claim that elves are doomed. Again.

You need to face a bit of reality here - you've built up their bizarre and unsupported (outside of your campaign) idea that elves are doomed. You started multiple threads, posted long, rambling and often incoherent claims to 'support' that, but in the end the weight of evidence is well stacked against the house of cards you've built. Elves are doomed in your setting, and I'm sure that's very dramatic, tragic and sad...but your campaign isn't any others'. Stop claiming it is.

Elves must be truly *special* people, to transcend history and fate and change and all adversary, and remain for truly long periods of time (tens of thousands of years or longer) within the weave of fate.

Not in all campaigns, sorry.