The Problem With Spot and Listen

[Cabral]

Actually a person's eyesight does not tend to deteriorate, as I understand it... the lenses of the eye tend to become less flexible and alter the range of what you can focus on. in other words, you tend to develop near- or far-sightedness.

Therefore situational penalites might be appropriate, but not an accross the board penalty. Also, how do you accomodate those people whose eyesight does not meaningfully deteriorate?

If you really don't like the effects aging has on Spot and Listen, why not make it a statless skill? And what about the effect of Aging on Search through the Int stat? Arthritis makes you a better crafter? Altziemers improves your knowledge checks?

Old Age Improves: Appraise, Bluff, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimdate, Knowledge, Listen, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Survival, Use Magic Device ... PLUS Paladin saves, Turning Undead, spellcasting, bardic knowledge, Wild empathy, Will saves, skill points, psionic power manifeasting, languages known, and some other stuff I'm forgetting ...

Fixing part of this nonsense can make the game more complicated and point out other inconsistances ... it might be better just to burn a use of suspend disbelief

(note: I'm not saying you're wrong, bad scarecrow! I'm just playing devil's advocate )

 

[DreamChaser]

One thing to note about these skills:

They are not "Hear" and "See" they are "Spot" and "Listen". Anyone who has ever been around kids (or angry significant others) knows that there is a universe of difference between hearing something (purely sensory) and listening to something (which involves attention and the sense of what to filter out and what not to).

Training (skill ranks) and experience (increase to Wisdom) can drastically improve your ability to listen or spot something significant. While the deterioration of the senses as you age does not carry through here well, one must remember that game rules are not as effective at representing the non-hero as they are the hero. The old man might well be deaf, not because he has a +3 to wisdom but because it makes sense for the character.

DC

 

[dvvega]

DreamChaser has raised a very good point.

Listen and Spot are not just senses, they involved discernment of what those senses tell you.

Spot for example: there is a wind blowing through the clearing, however the bush over there is moving in a manner not appropriate for the wind. There is something hiding in there.

Yes your eyesight was used to see the bush moving, however your Wisdom/experience (ranks) have told you that it was moving the wrong way. Someone with no experience would just think it was the wind.

However age does dull the senses, however D&D is not designed to be realistic. If you want to add a little realism (based on deterioration of the senses) either come up with a scale for that deterioration or take a leaf out of the armour check penalty book.

Instigate a senses penalty based on age. You receive a -1 cumulative modifier to all sense based skills as you get older. This would include Listen/Spot/Disable Device/Search and so forth. Those really old guys sitting on the porch who can still spot you a mile away just have phenomenal ranks in the appropriate skills.

D

 

[Raven Crowking]

Simple solution: Middle age: -1 spot/listen
Old age: -2 spot/listen (stacks with previous penalty)
Venerable: -3 spot/listen (stacks with previous penalties)
Easy solution with out changing what attribute skills are linked to.

Actually, that's not a bad solution. As for the "not everyone's senses deteriorate" observation, it is clear that some people buy skill ranks to offset physical deterioration.

Slight hijack: Modelling the waning of a character's prowess as time goes on is something that I am actively working on myself. Loss of levels might do it, but I'd have a hard time getting my players to buy into it.

Any other ideas on that one?


RC

 

[Cabral]

Use the Flaws system. Have a set of old age flaws that grant bonus old age feats ... (having seperate old age feats prevents sillyness like ...I have Arthritis so now I have ... Whirlwind attack! Bwahahaha )

 

[Raven Crowking]

Use the Flaws system. Have a set of old age flaws that grant bonus old age feats ... (having seperate old age feats prevents sillyness like ...I have Arthritis so now I have ... Whirlwind attack! Bwahahaha )

Have you done this? And, if so, can you example your old age feats?


RC


EDIT: BTW, whirlwind attack gained from arthritis sounds like Yoda in the prequels....

 

[General Barron]

Didn't read all the replies here, so forgive me if this has been mentioned:

Currently, Spot and Listen are skills, not attributes. If they represent how well your character can hear or see things, then why can you improve them with level? Why is there a maximum number of ranks you can invest in them? How come you have to be a grizzled, dragon-slaying 20th level character in order to have 20 ranks in spot? Shouldn't a young, 1st level commoner be able to have as good of eyesight as the middle-aged 20th level hero?

Spot/listen represent how attuned you are to your own senses. High skill means you can be walking down a busy street, and notice when something minor is out of place. That takes more than just good senses; it requires that you know how to take in everything around you, and filter out anything that isn't normal. Wisdom is the best stat to represent this.

A perception stat would perhaps be better for this, but I'm not sure it would have enough use in other areas of this game to justify its existence.

For the record, sense-motive deals exclusively with people, their emotions, etc, at least from my reading of its description.

 

[Cabral]

Have you done this? And, if so, can you example your old age feats?


RC


EDIT: BTW, whirlwind attack gained from arthritis sounds like Yoda in the prequels....

LOL! Go whirling geezer of death!

No I haven't made any, just got the idea reading your post ... so let's make some!

Old Age Flaws:
Format note: these flaws generally have a penalty associated with age categories. These penalties do not count age categories prior to the one in which you took the flaw. (for example, if you took Arthritis at Old age, you would have a -1 armor check penalty, not -2)The age categories are Middle Age, Old, and Venerable.

Arthritis
Your joints have grown stiff making it difficult to move like they used to
Prerequisite: Middle Age
Penalty: you have a -1 armor check penalty per age category.

Old Eyes
Your vision isn't as sharp as it used to be
Prerequisite: Middle Age
Penalty: you suffer a -1 penalty per age category on Spot and vision based Search checks. in addition, vision based penalties for range are doubled.

Old Ears
Your hearing isn't what it used to be.
Prerequisite: Middle Age
Penalty: You suffer a -1 penalty per age category on Listen and hearing based search checks, as well as on Initiative checks.

Old Age feats:
Format note: some of these feats have a bonus associated with age categories. These bonuses do not count age categories prior to the one in which you took the feat. The age categories are Middle Age, Old, and Venerable.

Calosed Hands
[needs flavor text]
Prerequisite: Middle Age
Benefit: You may ignore -1 per age category of penalties for improper or inadequate tools.

Old Soul
[More flavor text]
Prerequisite: Middle Age
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus per Age category on Perform checks.

Crumdugery
You scare small children
Prerequisite: Middle Age {or Old Age}
Benefit: You gain a +1 {or +2} bonus per age category on Intimdate checks

Maybe I'll make some more later ... back to noodles. Mmm... Ramen

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

What about your typical old zen master who can hear a cricket sigh from a mile away or see a sparrow tremble at the passing of a hawk? There's something to be said for just having had more years to practice being awesome than some young fool who barely pays attention to the itch on his butt, much less the manifold wonder of the universe.

 

[Cabral]

Oh right. I forgot to mention the mechanism for acquiring Old Age Feat/Flaws:
1) Upon reaching a new age category (as defined above), you may (you may make it manditory if you wish) choose one (maybe two) Old Age flaw(s) that you qualify for.
2) Each Old Age Flaw you take allows you to take one Old Age Feat. (Old Age feats might or might not also be available as normal feat choices.)