The redefinition of feats.

[IceFractal]

I can crack open the Power book that my character is built upon (Arcane, Martial, or Divine & Primal soon) and go from there.

Actually, this is my problem with the hyper-specialized feats. Because any given book only has 1-3 feats a given character could benefit from, you need a lot of books to fill out a character. Ideally, Arcane Power should be able to supply at least half an arcane character's feats, which would mean at least 8-10 feats most people could use.

 

[tyrlaan]

I think race-restricted class feats are interesting, but I don't think they're providing enough general class feats, or general feats period.

Yeah, I would definitely agree with that.

3E and 4E can never live in peace until 5E comes out.

Hahaha! And then the two greatest enemies will join forces against a common foe like a bad episode of the He-Man cartoon (or just about any 80s cartoon for that matter)

 

[Intense_Interest]

Actually, this is my problem with the hyper-specialized feats. Because any given book only has 1-3 feats a given character could benefit from, you need a lot of books to fill out a character. Ideally, Arcane Power should be able to supply at least half an arcane character's feats, which would mean at least 15 feats most people could use.

Wait, how many feats per tier does your character have? If you really have such a hole in your design that you have more than 1-3 feats that you have to spend somewhere, it means that you have more than half of the possible feats you can gain in a tier blank! We're talking about 6 feats per tier- this isn't like the 3E fighter where we had 4 by the time they hit level 2.

Secondly, it is more annoying to shuffle through three different 30-page pamphlets of "Complete Archer" or "Complete Drow-without-Lolth" to find a reference for a feat you decided was completely necessary.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Can I disagree here?

Of course!

I just happen to fall definitively on the other side of the fence on this one. I tend to already have more cool character concepts than I can shake a stick at. I buy books because I want a specific slew of options, and am very unhappy with that book providing only a small fraction of content that's actually usable.

If I'm buying a book called "The Complete Elf" then I know up-front that if I want the bulk of it to be useful to me, I'd better be playing an elf.

If I pick up "Martial Power" then I expect the bulk of its content to be applicable to any martial character. Not martial half-elf genasi born in July.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

I think many of the feat have more... logical prerequisites. It makes sense that a wizard feat requires INT and some WIS, for example. (It's not like requiring an INT 13 to learn Combat Expertise and the various follow up feats like Improved Trip or eventually Whirlwind Attack)

I'm not sure the Int 13 for Combat Expertise was a bad idea. If you went that way, you were playing a smart fighter and had a different set of feats open up for you.

3.X PHB provided a fighter several choices for stat arrangement
Str: Power Attack
Dex: Dodge, Weapon Finesse
Int: Combat Expertise

Not to mention the various other fighter builds from two-weapon fighting, to ranged, to toughness/endurance builds. Plus you still wanted Con for hit points and saves. I'm sure if I look hard enough I'll find a use for Wisdom too (sorry Charisma). A fighter (or any martial class) didn't need to be all consumed by stat X because of the myriad of interesting choices for different stat arrangements. I loved playing Str 10 fighters (I'd just snag Weapon Finesse and move on).

For me, part of the beauty of 3.X feat system was the ability to make a smart fighter viable. In 4E, if you want a smart fighter, you better roll a swordmage.

 

[Intense_Interest]

I just happen to fall definitively on the other side of the fence on this one. I tend to already have more cool character concepts than I can shake a stick at. I buy books because I want a specific slew of options, and am very unhappy with that book providing only a small fraction of content that's actually usable.
...
If I'm buying a book called "The Complete Elf" then I know up-front that if I want the bulk of it to be useful to me, I'd better be playing an elf. If I pick up "Martial Power" then I expect the bulk of its content to be applicable to any martial character. Not martial half-elf genasi born in July.

Well really, the book is applicable to any martial character, you just have to look at the Powers section as well as the feat section. Buying a book just to look at the Feats (and complain about it on the internet) is kinda weird. Not every page is going to be necessary at the same time, but at least you have the chance to see what your options are in just one book.

But again, how many pages do you think a "Complete Deva" book could produce? 20 total, maybe? At least in Martial Power, there is something for everyone that has a Martial character, or is thinking about using a Martial character. Even "The Complete Human" supplement would be a mis-mash of crazy hard-to-grok feats that are patches to real design. How happy would you be to learn that a Str 15 Human can get a Jump-Kick attack if you didn't have any base-line to compare it to? In my view, the ability to compare racial feats shows more about the feat than just having a grab-bag stand-alone feat next to 10 other hard-to-compare feats.

Secondly, Martial Power, being a maxi-book instead of a collection of mini-books, means that it is easier to store and carry to the table. I don't know if that is valueble to you, but it is worth the price of an extra page or three to me.

 

[malraux]

But again, how many pages do you think a "Complete Deva" book could produce? 20 total, maybe?

I'm gonna guess [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Players-Handbook-Races-Dragonborn-Supplement/dp/0786953861/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1242161388&sr=8-5"]36[/ame].

 

[Plane Sailing]

I would like to echo those who observed that 4E powers occupy part of the niche that 3E feats filled.

It is an observation that a number of people have made, but which I don't think really holds up.

For instance, feats like improved trip or whirlwind attack allowed you to do those things all the time at any time. Apart from the very tiny number of at-will powers, you are limited to doing those kind of things once per encounter.

Secondly, 4e feats are not all about little bonuses - the wizard feats which allow you to start a close blast Dex mod squares away from you, or the wizard feat which allows you to put Wis mod 'holes' in your burst or blast are pretty major benefits, beyond anything that you saw in feats in 3.5e

(it was only in the later splatbooks that more far-ranging feats appeared like the magic 'reserve' feats, or more 'tactical' feats with a bunch of thematically related powers, so I think at the moment it is best to compare what we see with PHB1+2 with the base 3.5e PHB)

FWIW I find myself annoyed by the number of race+class specific feats. The big problem is that most of the time you don't really have much of a choice of feats because there are so few things that will actually fit your existing race/class/ability scores.

Cheers

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It is an observation that a number of people have made, but which I don't think really holds up.

I agree. I actually find that 4e powers are most akin to 3.x Vancian spellcasting. Each has a set number of uses, with a set effect. We've abandoned Vancian magic in concept, but not really in design.

FWIW I find myself annoyed by the number of race+class specific feats. The big problem is that most of the time you don't really have much of a choice of feats because there are so few things that will actually fit your existing race/class/ability scores.

This is it exactly, for me.

 

[Herschel]

I really like the 4E system of feats. Sure, they're specialized in some cases, but that works well. The Powers you choose are also like the 3E feats themselves.

And they're geared towards tailoring a character in to their role with secondary role abilities rather than the ability to make a "do-it-all and hang with my lackeys" character.

They give you the ability to take Powers and make those Powers better, if you so choose. IE: Things like Cleave and Greenflame Blade give two of the main defenders a bit of controller power and a way to help deal with bunched foes, etc. even at an At-Will level. If you gave that to a rogue plus his sneak attack damage, etc. to the primary, why play the defender? If a rogue wants those types of abilities even on an encounter level, he needs to spend points in an otherwise unuseful stat to make them worthwhile.

4E isn't about just taking the character that needs little thought and does the most damage. It's about tactical movement and teamwork. That's one of the things I enjoy most about it. Harder and faster isn't always what's needed in a given situation.