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The resurrection problem. Case in point: Eberron

Aaron

First Post
I always had some difficulties while trying to create some drama in a world where resurrection is avalaible.

Ok: it's expensive; maybe there aren't many who can cast resurrection spells (unless you are playing high magic); there are ways to get around it (stole the soul, feed the corpse to a barghest; don't kill but steal the living body and cast temporal stasis on it, etc.), but I still think it's a huge problem.

Especially in a world like Eberron.

Example: in Five Nations we read that King Boranel's elder brothers were kiilled while fighting on the western frontier, and King Boranex "took his own life in grief the following month".

Uh?

Couldn't he find a cleric to resurrect them?

The same goes for Boranel: in the same page (57) we read that his wife has been assassinated, and that he offered a "sizable bounty" for the killer.

Uh?

Could't he simply use that money (or part of it) to resurrect his beloved wife?
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
Don't forget that the departed has to want to return.

I suspect many people prefer their new existance and aren't driven to return to the Material Plane.
 

Aaron

First Post
Don't forget that the departed has to want to return.

I suspect many people prefer their new existance and aren't driven to return to the Material Plane.
Uhm...in Eberron the afterlife in Dolurrh looks very unattractive at best.
 

delericho

Legend
Part of the concept of Eberron is that there are very, very few high level characters in the world. As such, there are almost none who are able to cast Raise Dead, and even fewer for Resurrection and True Resurrection. And as for the question of them being willing to cast it...

(This is actually also written into baseline 3e as well, but it does seem to get readily ignored...)

However, it does remain something of a problem - there's no good reason why the king wouldn't have the resources for a resurrection. Unless, of course, there are political points to be made from being the grieving widower. :)

A possible solution may well be to rule that the gods only permit 'fated' characters to be returned to life - that is, it is restricted only to the most significant figures of the age. Naturally, the PCs happen to be marked in this way. (Or make it a consequence of the outworking of the Draconic Prophecy, or something equally hand-wavey.)
 

Klaus

First Post
I always had some difficulties while trying to create some drama in a world where resurrection is avalaible.

Ok: it's expensive; maybe there aren't many who can cast resurrection spells (unless you are playing high magic); there are ways to get around it (stole the soul, feed the corpse to a barghest; don't kill but steal the living body and cast temporal stasis on it, etc.), but I still think it's a huge problem.

Especially in a world like Eberron.

Example: in Five Nations we read that King Boranel's elder brothers were kiilled while fighting on the western frontier, and King Boranex "took his own life in grief the following month".

Uh?

Couldn't he find a cleric to resurrect them?

The same goes for Boranel: in the same page (57) we read that his wife has been assassinated, and that he offered a "sizable bounty" for the killer.

Uh?

Could't he simply use that money (or part of it) to resurrect his beloved wife?
1) You need a complete body. Some assassins in Eberron steal the deceased's head to prevent resurrection.

2) High-level casters of the deceased's faith are few and far between. The highest level divine spellcaster in Khorvaire is the Keeper of the Flame, and only within the Grand Cathedral in Thrane.

3) There is a magic weapon in Eberron called the Tooth of the Keeper (or something like that). These magical daggers steal the souls of victims they kill, preventing all resurrection attempts.

4) After a while in Dolurrh, the soul forgets its mortal existence and is thus unable to return.
 

I always had some difficulties while trying to create some drama in a world where resurrection is avalaible.

Ok: it's expensive; maybe there aren't many who can cast resurrection spells (unless you are playing high magic); there are ways to get around it (stole the soul, feed the corpse to a barghest; don't kill but steal the living body and cast temporal stasis on it, etc.), but I still think it's a huge problem.

Especially in a world like Eberron.

Example: in Five Nations we read that King Boranel's elder brothers were kiilled while fighting on the western frontier, and King Boranex "took his own life in grief the following month".

Uh?

Couldn't he find a cleric to resurrect them?

The same goes for Boranel: in the same page (57) we read that his wife has been assassinated, and that he offered a "sizable bounty" for the killer.

Uh?

Could't he simply use that money (or part of it) to resurrect his beloved wife?

1. The spirit has to be willing to return. If they are happy in the afterlife, and life sucked, they probably won't want to come back. Heck, if I knew there were assassins after me who wanted to use soul-destroying or trapping effects on me, and I managed to make it to the afterlife, I'd refuse anything that would bring me back, because I couldn't guaranteed I'd ever make it back to the afterlife. (Personally, if I was in a D&D world, I'd want to go on an extinction-level purge of Barghests, because eating someones soul is freaky-creepy-evil).

2. Remember the time limit on Raise Dead. 1 day per Caster level (or 1 week in AD&D). This means you need to find the body quickly, or get a higher level spell.

3. In many settings, casters high enough level to cast Resurrection (13th level in 3.x, 14th in AD&D) or True Resurrection (17th in 3.x, N/A in AD&D) are rare. Eberron has few high-level NPC's, so I wouldn't count on any kingdom being able to perform True Resurrection, and Resurrection still requires finding the body.

4. If the body is destroyed or mauled, Raise Dead is also out. I'd imagine that when Raise Dead is an option but Resurrection is less of one, assassins would make a point to mutilate/destroy the body to the point where Raise isn't an option.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Especially in a world like Eberron.

Example: in Five Nations we read that King Boranel's elder brothers were kiilled while fighting on the western frontier, and King Boranex "took his own life in grief the following month".

Uh?

Couldn't he find a cleric to resurrect them?

Only if he had the bodies, and only if the bodies could be returned in a time frame that 'Raise Dead' was viable because 'True Resurrection' probably is so rare in Eberron that there might be only a few clerics capable of casting it in the whole world.

Also, on my world there are usually prohibitions against raising the dead from royal families because it tends to create succession crisises. You can have a situation where the King dies, the heir is crowned King and then the old King raised from the dead. So now who is the true King? You can get civil wars from that sort of thing, so clerics are reluctant to intervene and in many countries prohibited by law and tradition from doing so.

Even in countries were they aren't, you run into this problem...

The same goes for Boranel: in the same page (57) we read that his wife has been assassinated, and that he offered a "sizable bounty" for the killer.

There are lots of ways to assassinate someone in D&D - even without inventing means - that will render resurrection impossible. We must assume that any assassin paid to go after the wife of the King must have the skill and means to actually utilize a method of killing someone and keeping them dead. In practice, it's easier to 'assassinate' a royal by methods other than killing them that merely straight up death:

a) Polymorph - One of the most accessible ways to rid yourself of a person in D&D is a baneful polymorph of some sort. You don't kill the King's wife, because that's a problem that's too easily dealt with. Instead, you keep the King's wife alive and hide her somewhere she can't be found. So long as the body is alive and undiscoverable, the King's wife is as good as dead and no high level spellcaster can do anything about it until the King's wife current form and location are ascertained. Ideally, you put the King's wife in a form she can't escape from and put her somewhere she will be safe until such time no one cares whether she comes back.
b) Trap the Soul - It requires higher level magic, but the absolute most secure way to kill someone in D&D is to trap their soul somewhere so that even if the body is discovered, 'Raise Dead' or even 'Speak with the Dead' offer no help. The serious players in world politics will be using methods like this to assassinate their enemies (probably in combination with several others on the list). Likewise, even wish is of minimal utility here. Not much can be done if you do it right until you find the object or place the person's soul is trapped in.
c) Lose the Body - It's not fool proof, because a dead body is an object and thus relatively easily found, but most resurrections require at least a portion of the body to be present before they will succeed. This makes for a 'low tech' solution to problem of high magic, in that if you dispose of the body well enough you may put the person beyond aid. The lowest tech form of this is simply have something eat the body that does a really good job of elimenating it - slimes are good at that, but it can involve burning the body (lava pits are good) or simply just hiding it someplace really inaccessible (depths of the ocean). There are of course some 'high tech' versions of this for those with access to magic. Disentigrate is an obvious choice. Less obvious but perhaps even more effective is hiding the remains on another plane of existence.
d) Foil Raise Dead - Raise dead can be thwarted by using an undead creature to commit the assasination or by using death magic, as can merely successfully hiding the body for a few weeks. However, such methods can be defeated with higher level versions of the spell like resurrection. Raise dead is no good if the Prince dies immediately on being brought back to life. Magical diseases like lycanthropy persist after ressurection and some resist being cured by readily available magic like cure disease. While nothing in the cannon directly does this, it wouldn't be hard to imagine a magical poison which resisted attempts to neutralize it. Until the poison is nuetralized from the body, it's no good ressurrecting the Prince to life. While such poisons ought to be rare and have an epic origin, they fit well with fantasy literature. For example, the poison used in Stephen King's 'Eyes of the Dragon' seems to have been chosen precisely because it was this sort of uncurable poison. For that matter, the entire fantasy cannon from Faerie Tales to Harry Potter becomes easier to explain if the deaths of important persons have to be done in special ways to prevent the person from coming back or being brought back to life. Why are there so many Princes in animal forms out there? Because someone recognized that for all the problems with the approach, it was harder to deal with being cursed and polymorphed than it is to deal with someone merely being dead.

So you see, in a world where it is well known that being stabbed through the heart is something your victim can recover from quite easily, assassination will definately mean some technique that takes that into account.
 
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Spatula

Explorer
Eberron solves the problem by restricting access to high-level spells from NPCs. IIRC, the one cleric capable of casting Resurrection is the head of a faith that doesn't believe in resurrection - followers of the Silver Flame believe that after their souls pass from Dolurrh, they go to join with the Flame in order to keep it going. Raise Dead would be more available, but as mentioned, its requirements are harder to meet.

Keith Baker has said that the 4e raise dead ritual (which only works on those whose fate has not yet been fulfilled) was how he always envisioned resurrection magic working in Eberron.
 

RainOfSteel

Explorer
Couldn't he find a cleric to resurrect them?

[...]

Could't he simply use that money (or part of it) to resurrect his beloved wife?
Fluff text in many fantasy games has great difficulty in matching up with the game's capabilities. The histories and dramas of such lands are largely built the way they are in the real world's histories, with similar events and tragedies, ones which would be rendered moot or immaterial due to magic.

A whole slew of excellent ways around these issues was introduced in Steven Brust's Jhereg books. First, the body must be healed up or it will just die again upon being raised. If the body has been beheaded, suffered brain or spinal cord injuries that are too severe to be healed, the body had a raise block spell cast upon it (which must be more powerful than another can dispell), if the soul has been destroyed (with a Morganti weapon), or if the body has been made undead, then the raise won't work. I believe there may be a time limit on it, too.

In fact, raises are so common in that milieu, that crime syndicates typically send warnings to people by killing them but leaving them in a state where they can be raised. (I think it was an in-joke even way back then about raises eliminating death in Fantasy RPGs.)

None of that officially exists in D&D, though, so basically it's your elementary oversight during the process of imagining the progress of history in the Eberron milieu.

In D&D milieus, killing people in high positions on a permanent basis should be very difficult. For rulers of great nations and their families, True Resurrection will be available and so causing permanent death will be even more difficult.

It would also, I think, be a source of substantial disaffection among commoners to see their rulers, their families, and high nobles and officials constantly brought back to life when they must all suffer permanent death.

Raise Dead should be more difficult, costly, and be subject to a number of outside limitations that can render it useless. The Con-loss limit only restricts the number of times a raise can be done. If it is switched to the other limits outlined above, I think it would still be balanced (although with abstract hit-points, it would be impossible to determine brain/spinal cord damage directly).

True Resurrection (along with Miracle and Wish) should be removed from the inventory of standard spells that are readily available to clerics. They should only be special grants from the gods for exceptional services rendered or the fulfillment of prophecies.


Part of the concept of Eberron is that there are very, very few high level characters in the world. As such, there are almost none who are able to cast Raise Dead [...]

(This is actually also written into baseline 3e as well, but it does seem to get readily ignored...)
Raise Dead only requires a 9th level cleric. That is not that high a level on a national scale, and certainly not out of line for the national scale of the Eberron setting.
 

Embermage

Explorer
I always had some difficulties while trying to create some drama in a world where resurrection is avalaible. (snip)
Couldn't he find a cleric to resurrect them?

In Sharn: City of Towers (pages 20-21) six people are listed as being capable of casting raise dead, in the biggest city on the planet. None are capable of regeneration or resurrection. Barring the use of gentle repose, that leaves 9-12 days for the deceased to be brought back, which may not be possible during the war (especially since it might take days just to find the king's brothers on a large battlefield).

As others have pointed out, the only vaguely friendly npc specifically called out as being able to cast resurrection or true resurrection is the Keeper of the Flame, eleven year old jaela Daran. But the Keeper only has access to those spells within the confines of Flamekeep, and the church of the Silver Flame specifically avoids raising the dead - even the most virtuous champions - because of the belief that those souls join with the Silver Flame after death, and to bring them back is counter to that doctrine.

So realistically, not much is needed to ensure that a dead man stays dead. Per the spell description on Raise Dead, "While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life." A DM could interpret this (as I do) to mean that raise dead fails on any corpse that has been torn apart, since it says nothing about reconnecting limbs or reattaching heads. From a strict reading, decapitation prevents raising, making permanent death as simple as a coup de gras.

But what about the queen, assassinated in the heart of the country, where it should be easy to take her to a Jorasco clinic for raising? Other people have pointed out that death magic prevents raising, but that's not what the spell says. It specifies that "a person ... killed by a death effect can't be raised by this spell" (emphasis mine).

How does one kill a queen? With an assassin, of course. And the assassin's death attack prevents raising, by RAW. That's why they get paid the big bucks.

As you can probably tell, I've struggled with this question as a DM also, but the bottom line is that making death permanent in Eberron isn't difficult at all. Not every corpse can be raised, very few people can cast raise, and plenty of conventional means exist to keep the dead dead. The same coup de gras that makes sure your foe/victim is dead, rather than merely wounded, can also serve to make sure that he remains a corpse forever.
 

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