The roots of 4e exposed?

[Kobold Boots]

There were people that didn't do this? oO

.

.. and there were DM's that specifically found ways to kill the characters of the players who did this, and told them about it ..

Nothing says "kill me" like telling a DM that you're going to be something before you earn it.

 

[billd91]

Well, I don't think people really missed a huge amount in practice. I mean, AD&D lacked anything like multi-attacks either, and to-hits were a lot lower, yet it was never called the reason for slow combats (though IME it was no faster than 4e).

AD&D had multiple attacks - all the way back to 1e - they were just limited to the fighter types. In fact, they got a significant boost from specialization when it was introduced in Unearthed Arcana in the middle of 1e's run. And while to-hit bonuses might have been lower, the ability to hit certainly wasn't lacking. ACs were largely confined to a 20 point range overall, and most fell within a 10 point range. Add in the lack of a constitution bonus for monsters (much less one driven higher for larger creatures) and combats were a heck of a lot faster.

 

[Tony Vargas]

With the exception of Concentration (the Highlander-ification part, not the get-hit-make-a-save part),

I thought I was a total Highlander fan, but I do not get the analogy...?

I like the changes that 5E made to the spellcasting system as a whole

To me, relative to 3.5, it was a rearranging deck chairs exercise, but one that did leave a less obstructed path to the life boats.

. The paleovancian sacred cow was finally slaughtered, and if you squint the upcasting mechanic

To be fair, 5e killed no sacred cows, it was 4e that engaged in alien cattle mutilator level sacred cow slaughter.

5e just revivified the dead Vancian sacred cow as the neo-Vancian fast-zombie sacred cow.

And, upcasting seems a natural development from 3e metamagic, and is consistent with the even greater flexibility of neo-Vancian.

Fiddliness obviously doesn't bother me, especially when it allows you to pick up skills later in your character's life without waiting potentially 4 levels and using a very precious resource to do so.

Scaling only with ranks didn't really let you do that, though, because of the need to max ranks to keep up. If you switched from maintaining one skill to building up another, you ended up capable in neither.

5e proficiency is actually a step up from that, though a smaller step than 4e 1/2 level & training....

 

[houser2112]

With the exception of Concentration (the Highlander-ification part, not the get-hit-make-a-save part),

I thought I was a total Highlander fan, but I do not get the analogy...?

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

To be fair, 5e killed no sacred cows, it was 4e that engaged in alien cattle mutilator level sacred cow slaughter. 5e just revivified the dead Vancian sacred cow as the neo-Vancian fast-zombie sacred cow.

I certainly won't argue that 4E elevated the slaughter to war crime levels.

And, upcasting seems a natural development from 3e metamagic, and is consistent with the even greater flexibility of neo-Vancian.

I see it as being afraid to go full psionic, but I'll take it nonetheless.

 

[MwaO]

When I did see problems with turns 'taking too long' it was the players who were disengaged when it wasn't their turns - not even all of them, the old 'wake me when the fight starts' type players slipped off into their usual comas - were the ones that complained. That kind of player really needs to be dominant, the center of attention, to be engaged, at all, when someone else is having their moment, they shut down. The most destructive spiral is when you get a player like that, and he gets the idea of 'leading by example' (because he's accustomed to dominating play) and taking really /fast/ turns, which exacerbates his frustration.

Right. Now throw one of those guys into most home games and you quickly end up with the problem that 4e ended up having.

Namely, that guy said, "Hey, I hate 4e, PF seems good, why don't we play that instead? Or else I might stop showing up and then there's no game..."

 

[Tony Vargas]

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

Tenuous.

I don't see how the alternative: concentrate on multiple spells, check to see which drop when you're hit, would make a lot if sense.

Frankly I prefer old-school concentration (no roll, just ruined on taking damage, required on all casting, with loss of slot when iterrupted) or 4e Sustain (took an action every turn) as either would be a more meaningful limitation.

I certainly won't argue that 4E elevated the slaughter to war crime levels.

We really shouldn't dilute the impact of horrific, RL wrongs like genocide or (edition) war crimes by using them as analogies for rule changes to our silly little magic elf game - no matter how apt they may be.

But, clearly, there was not enough salt sown in the Vancian fields. (I figure its been long enough since Carthage.)

 

[MwaO]

But, clearly, there was not enough salt sown in the Vancian field. (I figure its been long enough since Carthage.)

Animate Dead Bovine apparently can be cast multiple times per edition…

 

[Shasarak]

.. and there were DM's that specifically found ways to kill the characters of the players who did this, and told them about it ..

Nothing says "kill me" like telling a DM that you're going to be something before you earn it.

Meh, then just make exactly the same character and do it again and again and again.

Really rub that DMs face in it.

 

[Kobold Boots]

Meh, then just make exactly the same character and do it again and again and again.

Really rub that DMs face in it.

This thought process has a significant declining return.
1. You'll get killed again and again if irrational thought prevails.
2. Smart DM will ask you to leave if it really bothers him. So you're only messing with yourself.

Signing off
KB

 

[Shasarak]

This thought process has a significant declining return.
1. You'll get killed again and again if irrational thought prevails.
2. Smart DM will ask you to leave if it really bothers him. So you're only messing with yourself.

Signing off
KB

Number 2 does not apply because a smart DM would not kill a character just because a Player plans out their character arc.

In reality people have a idea of what they want to be and then go out and do it all the time.