D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

[Shiroiken]

If I was looking at cutting classes, Sorcerer would definitely be on the list. It either needs its own unique niche (like their first version in the D&D Next Playtest), or they need to be absorbed by the wizard and/or warlock. I'm fine with either, but just being the "innate casting wizard" doesn't work for me as an individual class.

 

[fuindordm]

The number one thing I always though sorcerer should be able to pull magic they don't know/prepare out the Aether/Weave at a higher cost. You are a dragon sorcerer and don't have Wall of Fire prepped. Well you tap into your fire magic and cast Wall of Fire.

The issue with D&D and most TTRPGs is that once ideas lock in, it is hard for the community to input new ideas without using the old mechanics. The sorcerer is 23 years old but still using 50 year old magic that don't match the lore and 23 year old metamagic made for the wizard..

Indeed, and this would be the kind of rule that would justify the sorcerer as a base class. "Overchannel" and use a 4th level spell slot even though your normal maximum is 3rd, or cast one of your theme spells that you haven't qualified for yet. At a cost, of course, and probably a steep one, but this would be something that no other full caster can do, and very much in line with their story.

 

[fuindordm]

wizard has grown too big for it's role, originally it was powerful but frail with slow progression and had a bunch of limitations on it's spellcasting, but people didn't like wizards having restrictions so every new edition they got stripped of more of their binds becoming the ultimate spellcaster.

sorcerer has it's place, sorcerer i think should be THE blaster, channeling raw magic into the world and with it's metamagics to enhance their spells, whereas wizard, i think they should be utility casters, think about it, the classic theme of the wizard is an academic holled up in a library researching spells, it makes more sense to me that someone like that wouldn't be learning ice storm or melf's minute meteors but a whole bunch of fiddly intricate spells stuff like mould stone, fly, summoning, haste/slow, forcecage...

Well, this comes down to spell selection, doesn't it? If you want to play a "sorcerer" using the wizard class structure, you can choose blasting spells and a subclass like Evoker or War Mage that gives you innate powers of blasting. If you want to play a "wizard" using the sorcerer class structure, you can choose utility spells and any subclass that you think is cool.

The only problem I see is that a combined Wizard/Sorcerer would have a huge number of potential subclasses, probably too many for the PH.

As for your first point, I tend to agree. Trying to give every class the same power curve in 3rd edition caused the Wizard to lose a lot of its character-- they got fewer restrictions and more spellcasting, but the spells themselves became weaker and less interesting.

 

[Horwath]

I really like Metamagic so will often prefer to play a sorcerer.

Metamagic feat could get a little buff and be a replacement for sorcerer.

Metamagic expert:
+1 int, wis or cha
you learn two metamagic options
you gain a number of matamagic(sorcery) points equal to your proficiency modifier
You can take this feat twice. Or just double the effects of this feat without the ASI

 

[Nadan]

I still don't understand why people love to discussion something very certainly won't happen in one dnd, at all, on one dnd board. The One DND is nothing more than "5e remastered".
Same thing like remove damage cantrips, remove 6th+ spells, and remove core classes.
A lot of things could changed, like warlock become a...0.85? caster. But remove it? I believe is impossible, people will go apeshit on it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Well, this comes down to spell selection, doesn't it? If you want to play a "sorcerer" using the wizard class structure, you can choose blasting spells and a subclass like Evoker or War Mage that gives you innate powers of blasting. If you want to play a "wizard" using the sorcerer class structure, you can choose utility spells and any subclass that you think is cool.

oh sure you can and should be able to build your wizard to blast and your sorcerer for utility but my point was more that each uses their inherent class strengths to lean into their own area respectively.

the sorcerer's metamagic allowing them to empowered spell that fireball to burn everything to a crisp, they can throw out that powerful AoE and careful spell to protect their teammates, they can heightened spell to make sure the enemy fails their saving throw on disintergrate, metamagic is the sorcerer's tool and metamagic is mostly designed to get the most out of being used on combat spells.
meanwhile wizard's extensive spell list with a ton of niche problem solving spells and rituals, their many spell slots, their ability to learn new spells from scrolls and spellbooks seems like the perfect setup for a utility oriented 'problem solver' character, a locked door and no-one has thieves tools? don't worry i have knock! need to track down that shady NPC from a while back? locate person! we need to scale a giant cliff that's crumbling and fragile? fly! dimension door! spider climb! take your pick! (yes the wizard still has a ton of unique offensive spells but i think that's because of holdover from when they were the only arcane caster and people riot at the idea of ever taking anything away from the wizard, let wizard find their new niche)

so yes, you could build your blaster wizard and utility sorcerer, but given each their unique tools i think you would never quite reach the effectiveness of the utility wizard and blaster sorcerer and i think that's fine, lean into your strengths, do what you do best rather than trying to do what the other guy is doing best at and we'll have a funner game as a result of it.

Personally I always saw the Sorcerer as te D&D equivaalent of Marvel's mutants and DC's metahumans. Youget a suite of spells associated to your power. A Dragon sorcerer would get elemental, fear, and flight effects. A Shadow sorcerer would get necromancy and illusion spells. Sorta like domain spells. A sorcerer gets 1 domain spell list and gains new lists as they level up and evolve.

The number one thing I always though sorcerer should be able to pull magic they don't know/prepare out the Aether/Weave at a higher cost. You are a dragon sorcerer and don't have Wall of Fire prepped. Well you tap into your fire magic and cast Wall of Fire.

oh no disagreement there, getting a bunch of thematic/domain spells to your source of magic, but i don't think that contradicts what i was saying about them having the ability to channel large amounts of magic into more powerful spells and effects, however they're manifesting it they still have an innate ability to tap into the primal forces of magic and let loose due to their natural connections to it rather than the wizard who has to use tools and knowledge to manipulate it,
and the idea of every sorcerer bloodline having their own associated tag for whatever spells they can just call upon but burning higher slots is really cool,

 

[Mecheon]

I still don't understand why people love to discussion something very certainly won't happen in one dnd, at all, on one dnd board. The One DND is nothing more than "5e remastered".

Thought processes be fun to think about

Anywho, I'm going to side with folks saying this isn't the Sorc's fault, but I'm going the other way and will actually put blame to this squarely on the wizard itself being the bad class at saying why it should be the one remaining and shouldn't just be folded into an int-based sorcerer subclass or the like. YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT, I"M GOING THERE. Basically the wizard, if through its history as D&D's original spellcaster, doesn't really go hard enough into the specific idea of "This is the spellcaster that uses a book and earned knowledge to cast spells", compared to its counterparts of "This is the spellcaster that just holds onto raw magic and hopes for the best" and "This is the spellcaster who struck a deal to jump ahead"

Basically there should be a lot more spell-stealing and differences, but the problem is the wizard shouldn't be 'This is the default and everything else is Different". The wizard should have its own differences that lean into that. Let them set their spellbook flying around as a seperate blaster, or doing tricks to flip to certain pages to call down a prepared list of minor effects into one final spell. Heck, it should be the Blue Mage class, the one where you see something do something, you can now attempt to replicate that. See a dragon breathe fire? Well, great, you've now figured out a pseudo dragon-fire attack.

The characterful and flavourful niche of the Sorcerer is powerful enough I can't see it being removed now that its around because, even if the mechanics fail to support it sometimes, its still such a powerful storyline thing that removing it is just going to hurt the game and get people complaining to bring it back. Worse than we complain about Warlords, even.

 

[aco175]

I still don't understand why people love to discussion something very certainly won't happen in one dnd, at all, on one dnd board. The One DND is nothing more than "5e remastered".
Same thing like remove damage cantrips, remove 6th+ spells, and remove core classes.
A lot of things could changed, like warlock become a...0.85? caster. But remove it? I believe is impossible, people will go apeshit on it.

I'm thinking most people here think that Wizards are putting out what they want as well, but like to come here and discuss things.

 

[Corinnguard]

Since 1 D&D says that there are coming out with spell lists for arcane magic, divine magic and primal magic, they could borrow PF2's idea of having their sorcerer having access to a particular spell list based off of their archetype/bloodline.
PF2's Bloodlines:

Angelic- Divine
Demonic- Divine
Diabolic-Divine
Draconic-Arcane
Elemental-Primal
Fey-Primal
Genie-Arcane
Etc.

 

[fuindordm]

The characterful and flavourful niche of the Sorcerer is powerful enough I can't see it being removed now that its around because, even if the mechanics fail to support it sometimes, its still such a powerful storyline thing that removing it is just going to hurt the game and get people complaining to bring it back. Worse than we complain about Warlords, even.

You're absolutely right... the story of the sorcerer is compelling but the mechanics have never backed it up or given them something to play with that delivers a player experience distinct from the wizard and supportive of the story.

In my recent experience with 5e, 2 out of 2 sorcerer players need to be constantly reminded that they have sorcery points and metamagic because the mild mechanical benefit just doesn't bring anything exciting to their experience.

In the playtest, they are trying to give sorcerers a few new exclusive spells adding chaos and randomness. Would my players actually use these spells? I have doubts, and they feel like they belong to a wild mage subclass.

If sorcerers are supposed to be the class that has an intuitive mastery of magic and unique thanks to their bloodline, then sure, give them metamagic but lean into it and make it something exciting and powerful. Give them fully fungible spell points so that they can cast powerful spells more often. And give them unique "heritage" spells, not brand all sorcerers as gonzo wild cards. The value of a new base class is that it creates a different experience for the player--don't sacrifice uniqueness on the altar of standardization.