The steady rise in CR/EL

[S'mon]

The 12th-14th level PCs attacked some goblin caves recently and mowed through dozens of Wr-1 goblins, plus higher level leader types. When some raging ogre barbarians joined in, 1 of the PCs was killed.

I generally assume that trivial encounters happen in the background of the game - an EL 1 fight to 13th level PCs isn't worth mentioning - but unlike Monte's advice I do still run battles with foes CR well below 8 under party level. Currently the 12th-15th level party are battling a Duergar army in the Underdark, probably the bulk of the Duergar troops are 1st level, with a good number of 2nd-5th level, some 6th-7th elite and a few higher-level, I have no trouble challenging the PCs with them - last session wasn't far off being a TPK.

 

[JDJarvis]

It all depends on the campaign. low level and high level monsters together aren't all that unusual in my campaign. The really tough baddies usually aren't making a big deal unless they feel they are endangered by other folks, like a band of known do-gooders and feel the need to react.



There are lots of ways to handle the issues you raised:
"What happened to all the goblins we used to run into all the time when we were 1st level?"

* they are keepign a low profile becasue you'd kille em if they casued too much trouble.
* they headed for greener pastures
* You have heard rumors they being drawn into the service of a mysterious dark power
* you killed them all
* the local authorities have been able to keep the goblins down since you successful raids against them in the past
* there are some young upstarts that have been dealing with the goblins latley.

"Wow, its a good thing we're now 10th level, so we can take on this new, rising danger in the kingdom."

* good thing isn't it
* i wonder what they did to reach this level of power before you did?
* the npcs are asking the same thign abotu these new heroes that are standing in the way


"So where was this massive, rampaging, monster of destruction before we reached 20th level?"
* sleeping
* it was summoned by those clerics that escaped you last spring
* it is coming for YOU
* the end times are upon us

 

[RangerWickett]

20th level villains have tiers of henchmen. It's like a pyramid scheme, so that they might have thousands of 1st and 2nd level mooks around the country. Occasionally, those mooks fail to kill off the 'heroes' who show up in the same area, and thus the heroes draw the ire of the next tier of the pyramid. Most villains assume that their henchmen will take care of the heroes because there are lots of potential heroes who do get killed before they become a threat. PCs are just wild cards that mess up their calculations, and who are able to climb the pyramid to the leader.

Monsters, though? I don't use that many monsters. Most civilized lands don't have monsters, so you only fight them when you go to exotic locales like other dimensions, or the underdark, or the main villain's fortress.

In my last campaign, the plot went something like this:

Start at 5th level. Begin by fleeing the country because you're being hunted by the establishment, and they're much more dangerous than you.

Get to 6th level, join forces with a rebellion. Fight the scouts the evil empire sends to check on your rebellion.

Get to 7th level, head out to find friends for the rebellion, but along the way run into the evil empire forces that had been sent to destroy those potential friends. Fight them.

Get to 8th level, and start snooping on the secrets of the evil empire. The empire realizes you're a threat, but you're nowhere near as dangerous as some of their other enemies, so they send a group of 12th level folks your way to take you out. Through the aid of unexpected allies, and the amazing good fortune of convincing one of the badguys to joing your side, you're able to escape.

Get to 9th level, and help defend the rebellion's base from a major attack. Using your knowledge of the secrets of the evil empire, set out to undermine their power base. Get captured, and count your blessings that the evil empire's warlord doesn't kill you outright. Never suspect that you're actually pawns in her game.

Get to 10th level, and join forces with a bad guy who is the lesser of two evils. With a bit of aid from him, undertake a daring journey to destroy the sources of the evil empress's power. Realize you've walked into a trap, but again thanks to remarkable luck and a bit of divine intervention, take her down, trapping her forever in a giant cave-in. Through cunning political positioning, convince the dissidents in the empire's own army to join your side, and turn your efforts upon toppling the last remaining remnants of the empire.

Get to 11th level. Realize that your 'ally' bad guy who used to be the lesser of two evils is now the greater, and try to take him out by allying with yet another bad guy who is the new lesser of two evils. But this new evil ally betrays you, and the major bad guy tries to destroy the rebellion. Take your army and kick his ass.

Get to 12th level. Having lost most of your army kicking the ass of the previous major villain, the third-string villain who was biding his time all this time becomes your major foe. With few allies to rely on, you chase after him, falling prey to traps and ambushes occasionally, forces he has sent your way to slow you down as he tries to tap the same source of power that you never quite managed to destroy way back when you killed off the evil empress. Realize that the villain has a lot more resources than you, and that even if you spend time preparing, he'll spend the same time preparing and will get more done, so your best bet is to attack him now. Attack him and realize that he was a lot closer to his goal than you thought, so it was a good thing you attacked him now, but thankfully you do catch him off guard, and in a metaphorically appropriate way, defeat him. Save the day.

Get to 13th level. Campaign ends.

 

[diaglo]

the 1st lvl PCs in the OD&D campaign i referee are getting ready to be slaughtered by a hill giant.

 

[Voadam]

Foreshadowing, foreshadowing, foreshadowing.

In dealing with the Banewarrens we knew there was a powerful evil noble house with senior members off currently doing other stuff, now I'm dealing with some of these senior members plots but I'm not at the level yet to challenge them directly, just work against their plots.

One of the PCs had background as being in the dwarven army and fighting drow and now the whole party is following a murder mystery that seems to be leading to the powerful drow.

And the dragon cult we've been fighting on and off again throughout the campaign is going to lead to a showdown with the dragon at the center at some point.

Plus in dealing with the Noble house plots I keep getting more and more information on extraplanar fiends involved. I'm not looking forward to hunting down the Balor who is involved.

 

[kigmatzomat]

How transparent or seamless is the steady increase in CR/EL in your campaign? Is there ever a time when the Players say, "What happened to all the goblins we used to run into all the time when we were 1st level?"

Only when they feel like looting goblins. Part of that could be the goblins are tax collectors in one region and have the right to ambush first, ask questions second if you aren't flying a current tax pennant. The goblins mainly leave them alone now that there are sketches of them being circulated.

"Wow, its a good thing we're now 10th level, so we can take on this new, rising danger in the kingdom." or "So where was this massive, rampaging, monster of destruction before we reached 20th level?"

Some of it is timing. A demonic horde was almost released and they were in the right place to stop the sorceror involved. Sure, some Deus Ex that they were the right level to stop the sorceror (or vice versa) but had they failed there would have been a demon horde rampaging about.

I'm lucky, my players generally let the great monster loose or tick someone off enough that they let the great monster loose. Either way, it's on the prowl and they get to deal with it.

 

[Silveras]

How transparent or seamless is the steady increase in CR/EL in your campaign? Is there ever a time when the Players say, "What happened to all the goblins we used to run into all the time when we were 1st level?"

or "Wow, its a good thing we're now 10th level, so we can take on this new, rising danger in the kingdom."

or "So where was this massive, rampaging, monster of destruction before we reached 20th level?"

Quasqueton

Pretty transparent. I make a point of letting the players know the "average EL" of a wilderness area (reflecting the understanding their characters would have of the level of danger there), and that remains pretty constant.

As for other foes, like many have said, I use better tactics, class levels, and/or larger quantities to keep my PCs on their toes. The Goblin and Orc tribes of my world remain a constant source of challenges to my PCs. Where the campaign may begin with the occasional skirmish against 2-3 Orc Warrior 1 scouts, it may end with an Orc Barbarian 10/Eye of Gruumsh 10 and his 10 Barbarian 10 elite guards.

The premise I work from is that, as the characters demonstrate more ability, lesser challenges avoid them and their mentors direct them toward more suitable tasks.

Of course, this is why I also use Training rules, and work out backgrounds for the PCs that connect them to friendly (mentor) NPCs.