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The truth about THAC0

Storminator

First Post
Quasqueton said:
Thac0 was a manual shift transmission, and BAB/reverse AC is an automatic shift transmission. Manual shift is more difficult to learn, but once you get the hang of it, you can drive just fine. You may grind a gear every once in a while, but it's perfectly drivable. Automatic transmission is easier to learn, and is a bit easier to drive. But having something easier/better doesn't mean the older method is/was *bad*.

Quasqueton

Nice analogy. I'll follow up: There's someone in every group that can't drive a stick shift. And there's always that someone out there that can't figure out d20 + to hit bonus >Thac0-AC. I've been playing Hackmaster recently, and it's appalling when half the party can't figure out how to hit the goblins you've been fighting for 3 rounds already.

I think its that you have to do operations on both sides of the ">" sign that messes people up. You'll note that everyone that says it's no big deal has done the algebra to move all the operations to one side.

PS
 

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Algolei

Explorer
Quasqueton said:
You dislike a game system [any system] because you have a Player that cheats? That is such a weird complaint.
Why is it weird to complain that a system makes cheating easier? :uhoh: I should think it would be weird not to complain about it.

And actually I have multiple players who cheat, but only one of them has a special d20 that helps him roll higher numbers.

diaglo said:
chessex sells cheater's dice.
He's got a d20 with two 20s and two 19s on it. Is that where he got it from?
 

diaglo

Adventurer
Algolei said:
He's got a d20 with two 20s and two 19s on it. Is that where he got it from?


iirc, the chessex d20 has two 20s but no 1.

it also does the high # twice for d10 and d6.

and iirc a d6 with two 1s and no 6.
 

Janx

Hero
I think storminator and quasqueston have hit it on the head.

It sounds like bunches of you played where the DM wouldn't tell the players the AC. When that happens in 2e, it slows down the game, because you have to do math on both sides of the <= sign. Which is why in all the games I played, we just gave out the AC. In about 1 swing, a fighter's gonna know how tough it is to hit the guy anyway, so why dork around making the math harder. (one house rule was, you don't get told the AC until you commit to attacking the bad guy, no take backs once you find out he has a -10 AC and you have an 15 THAC0).

Short of it is, all players had the THAC0 for each weapon, by each weapon on their char sheet. An attack went by as follows:
Player: I attack the goblin
GM: AC is 7
Player: need a 12 to hit (rolls) got a 13
Player: (rolls d6) I do 5 damage
GM: you jab your sword under his, and jab the goblin in the ribs, he winces in pain and brings his shield in tighter

Doing the secret AC method in 2e slows the game down for little benefit. The GM or the player would have to modify the result to figure out which AC was hit, if the AC was not automatically told. I prefer to let the players do the work and spread the workload (figure 1 round, 6 players, they each have to do the math once, versus making the GM do math 6 times, plus his own monsters).

In 3e, the math requirements are similar, but it naturally allows the DM to protect the AC, without any work on either side's part. This is why the AC reversal in 3e is better, as it gives GMs the best of both worlds, the players do their own math AND they can keep AC secret.

Janx
 

Crothian

First Post
What math on both sides? The players rolls a hit, looks at his chart (lots of character sheets had a place to fill in ones own Thac0) tales what AC he hit. DM looks at AC of monstere and says if it is a hit. Which is eaxcatly what we do in third edition. Player rools dice, tells what AC he hit. DM compaires with AC of monster and tells the player if he hit.
 

Silverleaf

First Post
Janx said:
(one house rule was, you don't get told the AC until you commit to attacking the bad guy, no take backs once you find out he has a -10 AC and you have an 15 THAC0).

Hope you let him run away after the 1st round... :)

Crothian said:
What math on both sides? The players rolls a hit, looks at his chart (lots of character sheets had a place to fill in ones own Thac0) tales what AC he hit.

Yes, that way works good, it eliminate all calculations. Here's my favorite sheet:
http://home.comcast.net/~bighara/BDD_CharSht.pdf

Although the DM still has to use the chart, or THAC0, or the method I gave (HD-based).
 

jasper

Rotten DM
Lets see first edition fighter need a 20 to ac 20
Write all acs on my pc sheet
10..9...8..7...6..5...4...3..2...1...0.-1.-2.-3.-4.-5..-6.-7.-8.-9.-10
10.11.12.13.14.15.16.17.18.19.20.20.20.20.20.20.21.22.23.24.25
so add any bonuses to my die roll and remember for 21+ I need a nat 20 pluse bonuses but a nat 20 always hits. Roll 11 + bonuses I hit ac 1 diaglo

Lets see second edition fighter thaco 20
Write all acs on my pc sheet
10..9...8..7...6..5...4...3..2...1...0.-1.-2.-3.-4.-5..-6.-7.-8.-9.-10
10.11.12.13.14.15.16.17.18.19.20.21.22.23.24.25.26.27.28.29.30.
so add any bonuses to my die roll bonuses but remember a nat 20 always hits. Roll 11 + bonuses I hit ac 1 diaglo

so what was so hard about thaco and looking at the chart. Dude by the fourth game everyone had their ac chart and saves written down on his sheet. The only difference is casters modifier affects the dc which just replaces user gets a - x save against this special spell
 

gideonn

First Post
THAC0 v I Hit

The only difference I note between the old THAC0 and the new 'I hit' is one of certainty, or uncertainty. In THAC0 the average player stated, "I hit AC 2." Now the average player asks, "Does 18 hit?"

I currently run a PBEM in which the older PCs are 2nd Ed and the newer ones are 3.5. I ajudicate each according to their rules and roles, transposing the monster numbers as I go. The two seem to be compatible.
 

Quasqueton

First Post
I currently run a PBEM in which the older PCs are 2nd Ed and the newer ones are 3.5. I ajudicate each according to their rules and roles, transposing the monster numbers as I go. The two seem to be compatible.
No, no, no, gideonn. Haven't you been keeping up this week? D&D3 is completely, fundamentally, and wildly different than previous editions. They are not compatible. Please end your game before it gets completely screwed up. :)

Quasqueton
 

threshel

First Post
And here it is. I hope this thread gets sticky. Conclusive proof that it's all ice-cream, and D&D is Baskin Robbins.

There is no difference, only preference. Say it with me. There is no difference, only preference.
It's all D&D to me.
:)
J
 

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