The value of weapon attributes

[Arlough]

I have oft felt that, like MM1 monsters, weapons didn't really have a consistant set of rules behind them. This only became worse with the release of AV1 and the "MOAR DAMAGE ANIME R00XX0RS" weapons therein (thank you [MENTION=78357]Herschel[/MENTION] for that emotive description).

I would like to create a system where weapons can be rated, and maybe eventually built, based on a comparative point system.

Generally, I figure that tactical options are worth more than chance to hit which is worth more than flat damage, which is worth more than variable damage.

But, I'm really hoping that some of the math has been done already to tell me things like "How much damage a +1 to hit is worth?" and "Which is worth more, high crit or X increases in die size?" but I haven't found anything except DPR comparisons.
I may have to fall back on those DPR calculations, but I am hoping there is something cleaner in the way of direct comparisons.
Does anyone out there know of any weapon comparison charts, by chance?

 

[Spatula]

I don't know of any charts, but the 4e items follow a pretty basic formula that only breaks down in a few places. +1 hit, a larger damage die, and most weapon qualities, all have the same cost - let's call it 1. The cost can be offset by lowering the damage die or increasing the weapon's skill level (simple - martial - superior). Let's say those have a value of 1. You can also make a weapon two-handed, which seems to give slightly more value, maybe 1.25.

The caveats are that some simple weapons, and some superior weapons that are based off of simple weapons, just suck, and that the greatsword is kinda under-powered. And High Crit seems to be worth less than other weapon qualities, where 1d12 + High Crit has the same cost as 2d6 damage.

 

[Arlough]

I did the math, and even checked the averages by generating massive data tables and comparing.

Brutal 1 is nothing more than 1 additional flat damage.
Same with 2dX where X is 1/2 the total you want.

So 3d4 = 1d12 Brutal 2 = 1d10+2

That means that they have placed the same value on High Crit and Brutal 1.

But, does that mean that they are of about the same value?
Are the following equal in practice:

• Rapier +3 1d8 One Handed Light Blade
• Short Sword +3 1d6 One Handed Light Blade Off-Hand
• Long Sword +3 1d8 One Handed Heavy Blade Versatile
• Broad Sword +2 1d10 One Handed Heavy Blade Versatile
• Light War Pick +2 1d6 One Handed Pick High Crit
• Longspear +2 1d12 Two Handed Spear Reach

By the way, I apologize if I have my numbers wrong. I am at work and trying to do this from memory.

Because all too often I see players in my group getting the same weapons because they are "the best!"
To me, this is an indicator that they are broken. How come I never see a player rockin' a scythe, or laying about them with a katar? Because these weapons are detrimental when compared to similar category weapons.
And that is what I want to fix by getting rid of or modifying all the weapons that nobody would choose.

 

[Spatula]

Here's a quick example of a point-buy system for weapons:

Damage Die (cost)
d4 (-3)
d6 (-2)
d8 (-1)
d10 (0)
d12 (1)
2d6 (1.25)

To-Hit (cost)
+2 (0)
+3 (1)

Skill (cost)
Simple (1)
Martial (0)
Superior (-1)

Hands (cost)
1H (0)
2H (-1.25)

Range (cost)
Melee (0)
Ranged (1)

Quality (cost)
High Crit (0.25)
Small (1.25)
Versatile (0, 1H and not off-hand only)
Light/Heavy Thrown (1) (unless paired with off-hand, in which case 0)
All others (1)

Where the point is to have a final cost of 0, after rounding.

So, Mace: d8 (-1), +2 (0), simple (1), versatile (0) = 0
Longsword: d8 (-1), +3 (1), martial (0), versatile (0) = 0
Dagger: d4 (-3), +3 (1), simple (1), off-hand (1), thrown (0) = 0
Trident: d8 (-1), +2 (0), marital (0), thrown (1) = 0
Fullblade: d12 (1), +3 (1), superior (-1), 2H (-1.25), High Crit (0.25) = 0
Executioner's Axe: d12 (1), +2 (0), superior (-1), 2H (-1.25), brutal (1), high crit (0.25) = 0
Shortbow: d8 (-1), +2 (0), martial (0), ranged (1), 2H (-1.25), small (1.25) = 0
Longbow: d10 (0), +2 (0), marital (0), ranged (1), 2H (-1.25) = -0.25

 

[Destil]

A friend of mine came up with this, it's a little rough but covers most pre-darksun weapons easily. I'd make a few adjustments myself (weapons with more than one type should cost more).

Weapons are built with these point totals:

A simple 1 hander is built with 7-9 points.
A simple 2 hander is built with 9-11 points.

A military 1 hander is built with 10-11 points.
A military 2 hander is built with 13-14 points.

A superior 1 hander is built with 11-13 points.
A superior 2 hander is built with 15-16 points.

Each half point of average damage is worth 1 point, including average damage that comes from the brutal property. (2d4 and 1d8 Brutal 1 both cost 10 for example)
A +3 proficiency mod is worth 2 points.
The High Crit feature is worth 1 point.
Off hand is worth 2 points.
Thrown is worth 2 points. The range seems.. totally arbitrary and made up.
Reach is worth 3 points.
Versatile looks like it is free.
Belonging to more than one weapon group is free.

Ranged weapons require a LOT more speculation since there are fewer examples to work with.
Ranged weapons get, for free, load minor and a range of 10/20, 15/30, 20/40 depending on simple, military or superior.
Adding 5/10 to a ranged weapons range is worth 1 point.
Free reloads costs 2 points.
The reload of a repeating crossbow costs 1 point.
No real idea what small is worth, maybe 2 points?

 

[Arlough]

[MENTION=2198]Spatula[/MENTION]
That is a great example. And I may implement that system until I have another.

My main problem is that while that describes a point system to how things are right now, I am looking to come up with a system that evaluates weapons based on what they can do.

Under the current system, for example, the dagger is a simple weapon and the Falchion is a superior weapon.

The dagger is

• Proficiency 3
• 1 flat damage
• 3 vaiable damage
• Melee and Ranged (ranged 5/10)
• Off-hand
• 1-Handed
• Rogue weapon (light blade in this case)
• Key to a Paragon Class

The Falchion is

• Proficiency 3
• 2 flat damage
• 6 variable damage
• High Crit

The falchion has the disadvantage of being 2 handed, as well as Military. By functional accounts, the falchion is the weaker option.
Sure, it does an average of 3 more damage per hit, but you can't use it in your off hand, you can't hold a shield, can't get sneak attack damage, and can't use it at range.

Also, the dagger is key to a paragon path, but I don't know how useful this is comparatively, because there may be a paragon path that uses the falchion I don't know about.

[MENTION=1980]Destil[/MENTION]
I'll try out your system and how it adequately evaluates weapons based on what the weapons can do.
But for now, it is time for me to go to bed.
Goodnight all.

 

[Spatula]

My main problem is that while that describes a point system to how things are right now, I am looking to come up with a system that evaluates weapons based on what they can do.

I don't think that's really possible within 4e's system. You mention that you're unsure how to weight the dagger's value to a PP, but there's also feats and class features to consider. Rogues get a +1 to hit with a dagger, for example. Fighters can get +1 to hit with different classes of weapons, depending on build. There are barbarian powers that require a 2H weapon, or cleric powers that require a simple weapon. Some classes want a lot of damage. Some prefer accuracy. The value of any particular weapon ultimately depends on the wielder.

I mean, for all the advantages that you list the dagger having over the falchion, it's still just a decent backup weapon to anyone that isn't a rogue. Characters with martial or sword proficiency are generally going to prefer using the falchion because it does more damage.

 

[Incenjucar]

The main reason you don't see anyone use a scythe is that it's a simple weapon. Anyone who has access to martial weapons will use them unless they have a special benefit for using something else -- like all those quarterstaff feats and powers. Most who rely heavily on weapon damage are likely to aim for a superior weapon at some point.

It should be kept in mind that weapons vary greatly in value depending on build. A khopesh is actually a decent weapon if you want to take advantage of it counting as an Axe. High crit weapons are naturally great for crit-fishing characters. High-damage weapons are fantastic for anyone who gets lots of [W]s, while high-accuracy weapons are better for people who get fewer [W]s or who otherwise rely on status effects or bonuses granted by powers.