D&D 4E The "We Can't Roleplay" in 4E Argument

[Imaro]

My problem with craft/profession was two fold. Skill points were a scarce resource so points in them were points missing from spot search and so forth and with craft in particular the kill resolution mechanics were nonsense. If you an bake a cake or tailor a suit then give time and resources a cake or a suit of a particular quality is produced. The quality standard will be pretty uniform over time, expecially if you were already journeyman or master level. If one was apprentice level then some advanse techniques would be unknown and there could be scope for improvement but the D20 plus mod is too variable to model what is going on.

Wouldn't this hold for any skill, not just craft skills? It seems you moreso have a problem with the variability than those skills in particular.

As for the ritual system, yes i have used it and my players have also.
I really like the idea of ritual and alchemical items, I have some issues with the way they are implemented in 4e but so far it has not been an issue.

Oh, I like the idea as well, when it was first presented in Unearthed Arcana I think as incantations... but I am specifically talking about the implementation of them. I'm not even going to touch alchemical items because I've never seen anyone even want to take the feat for them.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Wouldn't this hold for any skill, not just craft skills? It seems you moreso have a problem with the variability than those skills in particular.

Stuff like stealth preception and so forth have a lot of factors that affect success and failure and are often attempted under pressure if not in actual combat. I have no problem with variability in adventuring skills they add to the tension. I do prefer broad skills over narrow in thse circumstances.
However, stuff like craft or profession are generally more binary either one knows or one does not. Now that you have me thinking about it, I can see circumstances where a 3.x style check would be appropiate like the bard overhears someone humming a refrain in the pub and is trying to id the tune, then yeah then d20 + mod vs DC is approipate but if some one asks him to play "The Foggy Dew" then he knows it or not.

Oh, I like the idea as well, when it was first presented in Unearthed Arcana I think as incantations... but I am specifically talking about the implementation of them. I'm not even going to touch alchemical items because I've never seen anyone even want to take the feat for them.

As implemented I am ok with them but would prefer to drop the times a level (hours -> minutes, minutes -> rounds) However, my opportunities to play are limited and so I have not seen enough use to want to exeriment incase there are balance issued I have not seen.

I would be interested in rules for accelerating rituals or creating items that would act as ritual completion items the basic ritual could be done one plave but the final rounds could be completed elsewhere.
I think it would open up some interesting scenrios.

I had planned to experiment with that in my campaign when it reached paragon level but it currently looks unlikely to happen.

Ah! teens getting a social life

They grow up so fast.

 

[Ryujin]

I'm curious what all the people who felt like craft/profession/etc. skills were a waste of resources think about 4e's (post essentials) implementation of rituals? Do you all also feel that many of them are a wasted resource? Iknow in my experience with 4e I hardly ever, if at all, saw them used.

I like the ritual system but it depends on the group, how much use it gets. When I was playing, I would rattle off 2 or three useful rituals per session. The group, that I'm currently DMing for, has used perhaps 2 (that weren't story elements) in 7 levels.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm curious what all the people who felt like craft/profession/etc. skills were a waste of resources think about 4e's (post essentials) implementation of rituals? Do you all also feel that many of them are a wasted resource? Iknow in my experience with 4e I hardly ever, if at all, saw them used.

I think that rituals can be a bit wasted, but not because of the core idea behind them. Rather, I think that 4E didn't push them hard enough (and probably didn't test them enough). I think there should have been about 3-5 times as many rituals (and a lot less powers), in more categories. Again, it is not that I dislike crafting and other such things having a mechanical basis, but rather I dislike having them in the same pool as Sneak and Diplomacy.

In fact, it wouldn't have bothered me one bit if they had made rituals for every skill. Then they could have more easily scope/renamed some of the skills to cover a wider variety of core activities. Dungeoneering becomes "Craft" (anything), Nature covers exploration everywhere (including dungeons), and so on. The core skills do what adventurers would do--e.g. build a raft to cross a river. Then "rituals" tied to Craft and so on allow more specialized activities.

I don't reject the points of those who say leave such things out of the ruleset entirely. It is a trade off. But I guess I chafe a bit at spending so much time to develop a system with clear mechanical categories, and then not following through completely on the implications:

1. Skills - things everyone can do at least a little, and you get better at them by generally experiencing things--sometimes a lot better. (You can't hang around for 30 levels and be totally clueless about bluffing.)

2. Feats - more exotic things, often niche, that you can either do or not (within the limits of mechanically representation, of course--e.g. armor proficiency).

3. Powers - special things that you can do that directly pertain to conflict, often combat, and often limited (for several reasons).

4. Rituals - things that anyone with some initial investment can learn, but learned individually, and depending on other prerequisites (i.e. sufficient skill, a feat, etc.), and that can take time and/or materials to repeat.

The really sad thing is that massive proliferation of rituals, especially if expanded in scope, is the one place where massive lists of things, with flavor text, even themed--could have been added to the game without much risk of bloat. That would have opened up a lot of room for magic items doing ritual-like things, too, which is yet another big chuck with little risk for bloat. This wouldn't have even caused much trouble for those who wanted some areas open to everyone. Everyone knows how to do X? Fine, give them the ritual for free. Done. They teach it in every village where the characters grew up. It isn't even a problem in the online character program.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Re: rituals, I use them a bit. But I normally start using them (when they aren't free (bard) or mandatory (remove disease)) about five levels above their level when the cash cost feels less punishing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think Rituals are a really, really good idea that need some more polishing. Perhaps more classes should get Ritual Casting as a freebie...but have a limited array available to them. Better balancing would be nice.

I tell you, I'd take Ritual Casting for my Starlock (MC: Psion) if I didn't need to take so many other Feats to do what I want my PCs to do. (Heck, I may just take it at Epic.)

 

[AeroDm]

The way I see it, 4e doesn't inspire certain folks to role-play. Making it a poor choice for them. Somewhere along the line this morphed as: you can't role-play in 4e.

Worth repeating.

It reminds me of the Second Razor: "Never attribute to malice what ignorance alone can explain." It isn't that 4e defies roleplaying, it is that it doesn't openly push for it as much as previous editions may have.

In honor of your username, I vote that for RPGs the saying be redone:
"Never attribute to Mallus what ignorance alone can explain."

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

As far as 'rituals' tied to particular general learned techniques, there are Martial Practices, which fit that bill fairly well. That system could use some expansion, but it is a rather interesting way to add some 'tricks' to your character, and fits nicely with a PC who wants to demonstrate some specialized knowledge/techniques and avoid the more arcane themed rituals themselves.

I do think the concept with rituals is that you probably DON'T use the ones that are close to your level a whole lot. You can use them, but the lower level ones are more your bread and butter. They could have simply cut the costs and raised all the levels by 5, but why not let lower level characters in on the fun, albeit they probably won't spend the cash too often, in a pinch they can.

In terms of the feeling that rituals are expensive. I don't think that's a matter of an issue with the ritual system per se. I think the way parcels are engineered is a bit overly restrained. Not that characters should simply get more money, but the concept of a general level of wealth appropriate to a given level of play could be structured in a looser way (or at least they could have documented it in a less nailed down fashion). Players get the impression that every gold piece spent is a gold piece they'll never see again. Instead it would probably be better to leave it more at the level of "Well, I can risk some of my treasure for a greater reward later". Not exactly sure how to express that mechanically but it matches pretty well with what I've done.

I find that the PCs do use rituals in our game without too much concern for the cost, and they also utilize alchemy now and then as well. I've also had instances where a character spent some resources brewing potions. These subsystems work well enough in general but the results are only marginally better than saving your cash in a typical 4e game. Again, a looser wealth system is I think the key.

When comparing SW and 4e skill systems it is always worth remembering that SW was build far more explicitly with multiple genres and different types of settings in mind. Were 4e to aspire to be an engine you might use in a sci-fi, supers, etc type game it would perforce have to present the possibility of alternative knowledge skills. It sticks to just its one niche though and the issue simply never really comes up. Likewise if you consider SW just in terms of a D&D-style fantasy game you'd not likely be inventing any new skills either and could easily get by with the core skills.

 

[pemerton]

I agree that you'd do a better job at imagining Lancelot as a rather forthright and plate armour wearing Fighter, than as a D&D Paladin. Paladins come from books like "Three Hearts and Three Lions."

I haven't read Three Hearts and Three Lions, and indeed only know of it as the immediate inspiration for D&D paladins and trolls.

But I find it hard to believe that D&D paladins, either directly, or via Poul Anderson's mediation, aren't influenced by classic tales of saintly kings and knights. After all, the classic paladin abilities - laying on hands to heal injury and disease, and an incorruptibility of both body and mind (ie immunity to disease and saving throw bonuses) - are pretty typical attributes of those saintly figures. Similarly, it's not as if Tolkien spun the notion that "the hands of the king are the hands of a healer" out of whole cloth.

As to the Lancelot/Galahad/paladin question, in 4e I would cast Lancelot as a STR paladin and Galahad as a CHA paladin. And give Lancelot the striker-style alternative to Lay on Hands (from Divine Power).

If you cannot wrap your head around the idea that "A knight who is false cannot best a knight who is true" or the way that the pre-modern mind conflates spiritual and physical properties, I fear that Lancelot will always seem merely a strong and talented man.

That idea, which I agree is very important to the conception of Christian knighthood (and the Ordeal more generally) is one that no version of D&D does a particularly good job of implementing- the closest that 4e gets is by way of "true knight" style paragon paths, or the whole idea of the CHA paladin, but these don't give the PC any distinctive benefit for pursuing truth over falsity. Maybe an Insight- or Religion-based skill power would be one way to do it.

I don't know how Pendragon handles it. HeroQuest and The Riddle of Steel both have ways of somewhat giving effect to it, via relationship augments and spiritual attributes respectively.

 

[pemerton]

I was moreso curious as far as people who use them as is...

The wizard in my group uses rituals quite a bit - on average, probably one per session. Object Reading has probably seen the most use.