The Weirding Ways (PEACH)

[nonsi256]

.
This homebrew base class is meant to be my settings-independent interpretation of Frank Herbert’s concept of The Weirding Ways, with a pinch of David Lynch’s ideas.
Given I don't want it to be settings-specific: desert worms, water of life, the spice and such are not incorporated into the class design.

In terms of tier & power, I’m aiming toward a mid-high tier 3.

I’d like some feedbacks to know:
1. Did I nail the tier and power I was aiming for?
2. During the class progression, does its set of abilities convey the flavor of Muad-Dib and Leto II?
3. Is the class broken, underpowered or steps on the toes of other character-roles?
4. Would you consider using this class? If not, then why not?
5. What changes would you make to this class, if at all?
6. Any other comment/suggestion that comes to mind?

 

[kitcik]

.
This homebrew base class is meant to be my settings-independent interpretation of Frank Herbert’s concept of The Weirding Ways, with a pinch of David Lynch’s ideas.
Given I don't want it to be settings-specific: desert worms, water of life, the spice and such are not incorporated into the class design.

In terms of tier & power, I’m aiming toward a mid-high tier 3.

I’d like some feedbacks to know:
1. Did I nail the tier and power I was aiming for?
2. During the class progression, does its set of abilities convey the flavor of Muad-Dib and Leto II?
3. Is the class broken, underpowered or steps on the toes of other character-roles?
4. Would you consider using this class? If not, then why not?
5. What changes would you make to this class, if at all?
6. Any other comment/suggestion that comes to mind?

It's interesting and I like the placebos, but it is broken.

Firstly, and I know this wasn't the intended use, it is 1 leg of every wizard gestalt build. +7 Int and Int to everything with unlimited uses (those saves and penalties will not stop anyone from going negative).

Second, this is a 1-level dip (maybe 2 actually, at least) to every warblade as it gets piles of stuff at first level. Proficiency with any exotic weapon, changeable every day? Int to every check? Dodge = 1/2 Int mod? Command at will?

So, start there - no going negative (or a real, serious, escalating penalty) and dial down the first and second level abilities, then go from there IMHO.

 

[nonsi256]

It's interesting and I like the placebos, but it is broken.

First of all, thanks for sharing your experience.

Firstly, and I know this wasn't the intended use, it is 1 leg of every wizard gestalt build. +7 Int and Int to everything with unlimited uses (those saves and penalties will not stop anyone from going negative).

Ok, given there's nothing mandatory or committing in UA and given I don't believe in gestalt, ATM let's ignore this issue.

Second, this is a 1-level dip (maybe 2 actually, at least) to every warblade as it gets piles of stuff at first level. Proficiency with any exotic weapon, changeable every day? Int to every check? Dodge = 1/2 Int mod? Command at will?

1. I wouldn't bother with the 2nd level. Trading a Warblade level for +1 Int-score (half a modifier) and a placebo seems like a terrible waste.
2. I believe Proficiency with any exotic weapon is not a factor that would make a non-broken Warblade character into a broken one. Would it be better if I was to say that you can use the selected weapon as if you were proficient with it but you don't actually count as proficient with it, so that Weapon Aptitude cannot be applied ?
3. As for the [Int to almost every check], do you think that limiting the bonus to [no higher than Mahadi class level] will mitigate this problem ?

So, start there - no going negative (or a real, serious, escalating penalty) and dial down the first and second level abilities, then go from there IMHO.

Do you have any suggestion for a real, serious, escalating penalty ?

 

[kitcik]

3. As for the [Int to almost every check], do you think that limiting the bonus to [no higher than Mahadi class level] will mitigate this problem ?


Do you have any suggestion for a real, serious, escalating penalty ?

1) No. The uses need to be limited (both in amount and variety).

2) 1d4 Wis damage (or similar) PER NEGATIVE POINT. So when you go to -2, you are saving vs 2d4 Wis damage. And the DC escalates faster too. 15 + (2 times negative points) or something.

I still think you need to spread the 1st level abilities too.
I am a Dune fan, but this needs a little work - good luck with it.

 

[nonsi256]

1) No. The uses need to be limited (both in amount and variety).

Given that:
1. Weirding points are a limited resource (very few at the early levels)
2. The actions of a creature vs. another in a given round can amount to several d20 checks.
3. a single roll hardly ever means one side emerges victorious.
... I'm not sure how much damage potential this issue constitutes.

2) 1d4 Wis damage (or similar) PER NEGATIVE POINT. So when you go to -2, you are saving vs 2d4 Wis damage. And the DC escalates faster too. 15 + (2 times negative points) or something.

This is a great suggestion. Thanks

I still think you need to spread the 1st level abilities too.

I'll think about it, given there are other, at least equally frontloaded base classes out there.

 

[emoplato]

I like the idea but there are two main issues I have with it. One, is the all of the abilities should have a point cost and should probably be selective. The other is that it has massive outside battle/leveling power potential. Aside from having factotum skills you have instant learning/scribing spells as well as a lot of abilities open to interpretation for various things that instantaneously screws with people. It is like you have the best of bard, factotum, and rogue rolled into one with limited egoist abilities that can't be stopped.

 

[nonsi256]

I like the idea but there are two main issues I have with it. One, is the all of the abilities should have a point cost and should probably be selective.

The class has very few abilities that don't cost Weirding points:
- Uncanny Dodge, Immaculate Awareness and Perceptive Grace: all reflect unparalleled awareness and attention to details.
- The Path of Prophecies: Totally passive and beyond the character's control.
- Extreme Rationality: No core or homebrew class emphasizes one's strength of mind like this one - not even the psionic classes. This feature fits.
As for the selective part – the placebos are. The rest – I have no idea what other options I can or should assign.

The other is that it has massive outside battle/leveling power potential.

When you take this class, to more than a certain degree, you're your DM's puppet.
You do not choose to take the role of the world's messiah (or any other role). If it happens - it is forced upon you.
Muad-Dib was not "A Face", he was "THE Face", but he was bound by his destiny (even gave up his elder son and eyesight for it).
Leto paid even a higher price - he lost his humanity and any chance of happiness.

Aside from having factotum skills you have instant learning/scribing spells

Divination galore, yes (after all, I was aiming for “Kwisatz Hadarach”). But the force/creation powers are really not that hot level-wise.

as well as a lot of abilities open to interpretation for various things that instantaneously screws with people.

That's what The Weirding Ways is all about.
That’s the class’ Big Gun.
I never intended for it to be a wimp. The Beguiler class doesn't fall behind.

It is like you have the best of bard, factotum, and rogue rolled into one with limited egoist abilities that can't be stopped.

Bard: No “Inspire _____”; not even 1/5 of the Bard's spell utility.
Factotum: No inspiration and definitely not the same spell versatility.
Rogue: No Sneak Attack and no Rogue special abilities.
“Best Of” – I wouldn’t say.
The Egoist has some niche powers, but also The Whole Nine Yards (power levels) that go along with them.



And in general, the class has only 4 abilities that that weren't in the books, but for a very good reason:
1,2. Shout (blasting voice) & Mindspeak (when Muad-Dib silenced the "Reverend Mother"). Took those from the movie.
3. Extreme Rationality (if any class in the world is to have such ability - this is it).
4. Computing Aura (ditto).
Everything else is "core" (story-wise, that is).

 

[emoplato]

The class has very few abilities that don't cost Weirding points:
- Uncanny Dodge, Immaculate Awareness and Perceptive Grace: all reflect unparalleled awareness and attention to details.
- The Path of Prophecies: Totally passive and beyond the character's control.
- Extreme Rationality: No core or homebrew class emphasizes one's strength of mind like this one - not even the psionic classes. This feature fits.
As for the selective part – the placebos are. The rest – I have no idea what other options I can or should assign.



When you take this class, to more than a certain degree, you're your DM's puppet.
You do not choose to take the role of the world's messiah (or any other role). If it happens - it is forced upon you.
Muad-Dib was not "A Face", he was "THE Face", but he was bound by his destiny (even gave up his elder son and eyesight for it).
Leto paid even a higher price - he lost his humanity and any chance of happiness.



Divination galore, yes (after all, I was aiming for “Kwisatz Hadarach”). But the force/creation powers are really not that hot level-wise.



That's what The Weirding Ways is all about.
That’s the class’ Big Gun.
I never intended for it to be a wimp. The Beguiler class doesn't fall behind.



Bard: No “Inspire _____”; not even 1/5 of the Bard's spell utility.
Factotum: No inspiration and definitely not the same spell versatility.
Rogue: No Sneak Attack and no Rogue special abilities.
“Best Of” – I wouldn’t say.
The Egoist has some niche powers, but also The Whole Nine Yards (power levels) that go along with them.



And in general, the class has only 4 abilities that that weren't in the books, but for a very good reason:
1,2. Shout (blasting voice) & Mindspeak (when Muad-Dib silenced the "Reverend Mother"). Took those from the movie.
3. Extreme Rationality (if any class in the world is to have such ability - this is it).
4. Computing Aura (ditto).
Everything else is "core" (story-wise, that is).

Okay, let me flesh it out for you. You have a class in which most of its abilities can be obtained in a level or two. You have a power in which makes the wizard writing in his spellbook look like a preschooler learning cursive. You have all skills available to you as you have no list specified. This would come to a character that right from the get go could have artificer crafting without a skill check along with factotum unpredictability. Your voice powers are far more effective than any spell or bardic music capability both in effectiveness and time use. You then have other powers that instantaneously save themselves from being incapacitated, hindered, or dying for that matter. Then these abilities have a clause that says they can be used once a day without weirding cost. As for the rogue while you don't sneak attack(which with a simple uncanny dodge and a miss chance power could easily be messed with) you do have many of the sense/defense oriented and opportunistic-like abilities.
I say flush all the voice, placebo, and add some more offensive/movement oriented abilities into a weirding list, and they only can know a few at a time to where a full level Mahadi could have about 2/3 of them known. Then get rid of that convoluted empty weirding point cost and just double the points gained while the powers can have a cost of 1-5 as well as that clause. If they run out, they run out. Finally, get a class skill list compiled with 6+int, eliminate intelligence boost and make it a selectable attribute up to +4.

 

[nonsi256]

Okay, let me flesh it out for you. You have a class in which most of its abilities can be obtained in a level or two.

Are you sure we’re talking about the same class ?
How does that happen ? how do you sum up 5 features as “most of its abilities can be obtained in a level or two” ?

You have a power in which makes the wizard writing in his spellbook look like a preschooler learning cursive.

Sorry, I completely lost you there.

You have all skills available to you as you have no list specified.

You think skills are what makes a class broken ?

This would come to a character that right from the get go could have artificer crafting without a skill check along with factotum unpredictability.

Artificer crafting as in item creation, or craft reserve (or are you talking about something else) ?
How far ahead of the Bard or Rogue do you think, does having all skills as class skills amount to ?
To my better understanding, negligible to none.
The Factotum gains on-the-fly spells and Ex abilities. The more class features out there, the merrier. And let’s not forget the extra standard action at 8th level.

Your voice powers are far more effective than any spell or bardic music capability both in effectiveness and time use.

Could you please show me how and what I’m missing ?
As far as my experience goes, as far as compulsion versatility goes, the Beguiler eats this one for breakfast.
And as for the effectiveness part – just give a bard Eagle’s Splendor and in an instant he gains a greater boost than any pre-epic mahadi’s Int-boost would provide.
And the Bard gains several spells per day per level, not a total of a single point to his pool.

You then have other powers that instantaneously save themselves from being incapacitated, hindered, or dying for that matter.

Each of them is very situational. People tend to ignore this factor.
And most placebos address conditions that by 7th level are no more than a momentary inconvenience (and a total of 3 placebos is still very situational).

Then these abilities have a clause that says they can be used once a day without weirding cost.

Disease usually doesn’t even kick in during the encounter.
So yes. Once per day you’re safe from catching a cold. That’s it.

As for the rogue while you don't sneak attack(which with a simple uncanny dodge and a miss chance power could easily be messed with) you do have many of the sense/defense oriented and opportunistic-like abilities.

Which opportunistic-like abilities are we talking about ? (I’m not being sarcastic, I really have no clue what you’re talking about)