The "Zombie Problem"

[STARP_Social_Officer]

Zombies. Love 'em or hate 'em, you can't ignore 'em. But you can control 'em, with the help of a handy animate dead spell. But, there's a problem.
In order to cast animate dead, you need to be a Cleric of at least 5th level or a wizard/sorcerer of at least 7th level. At which point, you can control 20 HD worth of zombies if you're a cleric (4 x level) or 28 HD worth if you're a wizard. 20 HD worth of zombies is 10 normal, human-sized zombies. 28 HD is fourteen.
Now, here's the problem. 10 zombies are easy to kill. 16 hp each. No dramas. Once the PCs get to be anything close to the level of the zombie master, they can walk right over the zombies. Another example. If a 16th-level cleric casts animate dead, they can control 64 HD worth of zombies. That's 32 zombies. That's a lot of zombies. But zombies don't change HD, so 32 zombies is still only 32 easy to kill, 1/2 CR creatures. If the BBEG is a 16th-level cleric (CR 16), or even a lich of same (CR 18), the PCs can still plough through minions like they were harvesting corn. Even if the zombie boss has two hundred zombies, the zombies are still easy to kill.
And the other problem is that if you make the zombies tougher, there can be less of them. If, instead of 32 2HD zombies, the boss controls 16 4HD zombies, or 8 8HD zombies, the CR goes up only slightly. 8HD zombies are only CR3. And even if the BBEG controls gray render zombies, with 20HD, they can only have three of them. Their combined CR is still way less than the PCs can realistically tackle at that level.
Basically, the problem is zombies are too easy to kill and the bosses can't control enough of them. The exact same problem exists with skeletons and, for that matter, other undead too. The gist of the problem, for those who can't work out my reasoning, is that by the time the PCs are high enough to fight villains that control zombies, they are high enough to roll over the zombies, thus losing the entire point of the villain.
So, here's my question. How do you overcome this? How do you make zombies more challenging without this meaning there has to be less of them?

 

[jdrakeh]

I love zombies. I do not love zombies in D&D, for the reasons that you mention (as well as the issue with the impossible nature of contagion that often arises in official D&D settings). I think the best fix is to redesign zombies from the ground up so that they pose more of a threat, as designers like Justin Alexander have.

In other games that I play, zombies are vastly more threatening out of the box (Ars Magica zombies are to be feared, for example) and, typically, when I want zombies I go to one of those games instead of D&D. That said, zombies in such games can serve as inspiration for redesigning the standard D&D zombie to be much more horror-inducing.

 

[frankthedm]

4E: You are the DM, you simply decide the necromaster has performed some vile ritual or has been granted some dark blessing to get so much undead on his side. The PCs fight hordes of corpses and earn their XP and that's that.

If you feel the need to constrain yourself by 3E rules;

Not all have to be controlled: Vaults of zombies can be stored within sealed chambers to be opened by levers or inadvertently by invaders. mindless and evil means that the enemy just has to be closer to them than you do.

Cleric controlling Undead clerics: You control them, they control more zombies

There is also a magic item in libris necris that allows for more undead HD controled

 

[DrunkonDuty]

It's a problem.

In my games I get around it by removing the limit of HD that can be controlled. The number animated per casting of the spell is still limited. This means my BBEG can have as many zombies as I want to give him/her. ANd I limit PC zombie hordes by limiting access to the necessary corpses. Of course if a player really wanted to put in the work then they could get a literal army of zombies. Hey, if they're putting in the work then that's OK by me. It will lead to extra plots, NPC interaction, fights and all the stuf that is gaming.

But this doesn't fix the problem you described about zombies being less than effective at any sort high of level. But it could help with a re-adjustment of the animate dead spell. Just an initial thought, but how's this: The necromancer can invest more negative energy into zombies/skellies if they want to, thereby creating higher HD undead. They could still only animate undead = to 4 x their level per spell casting but the undead could have higher HD, limited to say equal to half the caster level.

Combined these 2 re-intrepretations allow for the BBEG to have hordes of tougher zombies. The 7th level necromancer could have hordes of 4HD zombies. In game I'd describe their extra ability to soak up damage as being hacked apart but still coming with that same slow, mindless determination.

Personally I'm a big fan of shuffling armies raised by necromancers. It's a staple of the genre and the rules should allow for it to be part of the game.

cheers,

 

[Ace]

The Ravenloft setting had two feat that allowed undead to be created and controlled that fell outside the normal level limits. One for lesser/one for greater

The caster spends 6xp per undead hit die and viola.

I allow this as a single feat and charge 5xp of power components (black pearls usually)

Another option is the "evil artifact" approach - a friend of mine uses this method. I like it as well -- I have 4 IMC 3 deathlords crowns and a tainted staff

 

[FalcWP]

One option (though, admittedly, it isn't a great fix, especially at higher levels) is the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror, who can control 4 + Charisma Modifier HD of undead per level with Animate Dead. Its a few more, but if 20 zombies isn't a challenge, neither is 30.

The easier method really is to break the rules a bit, or create a reason that it works. Maybe the caster has recovered the Scepter of Unlife and can control many more zombies than before. Use a feat to control more undead. The Desecrate spell lets you create more undead - maybe there's a spell that lets you control more.

As for them not being a threat... they're fairly easy, yes. Unless you're like my group, where the only slashing weapons are a few daggers. Its a group of fifth level characters, and they're about to hit a tomb which has zombies, skeletons (the only bludgeoning weapons are a warhammer, a boomerang that nobody is proficient in, and fists) and a few dread necromancers for support. If you can find a way to limit the longswords and battleaxes, zombies suddenly become a bit more of a threat, since that DR 5/Slashing kicks in.

Also useful is having zombies grapple and pile on to the characters - make it a lot easier to hit the PCs. Sure, the target gets an AoO... the first time. Funny thing about a zombie horde... its gonna be tough to keep from getting grappled without Combat Reflexes. Down at lower levels, this alone can be enough to threaten PCs, particularly folks like rogues and arcane casters who have lower strength scores and limited HP - they're now easy targets, and those slam attacks can add up.

Admittedly, they're still going to get pretty trivial at higher levels, and work better as a plot device (the necromancer is sending a horde of zombies to attack the town!) than an encounter (both because there is no number of human zombies that is reasonably threatening to higher level PCs and because even trying to run a combat at that number would be pointless for a million reasons).

 

[Woas]

Where is Psion when you need him?

First of all, I hate zombies. Besides that, how would I handle this? Easy, I don't allow the rules to get in the way of my game. I'm the DM. I do what I want how I see fit.

A) Multiple casters controlling multiple levels of undead. The BBEG uses his 28 HD worth of undead between two 19 HD brutes. The acolytes and lackies control the 2 HD zombies.

B) Magic Item. Necromancer's Crown. Doubles, triples, heck maybe even raises HD limit to the fifth power. Apply negative circumstances if Good characters or some such wield it to keep the characters from abusing it once they get it.

C) Special Feat/Class Ability for the BBEG.

D) Don't sweat the small stuff. Give the BBEG whatever undead minions you want. If the game is fun, who cares?

 

[Imp]

This is sort of like saying that, in order to be valid, every single organization of humanoid characters with a leadership structure has to be headed by a pyramid of 6th-level + people with the Leadership feat and good charisma. It doesn't make that much sense, it's an enormous pain to set up, you then (with undead) have to deal with selling an enormous preponderance of clerics in your undead hordes: just skip it. Your trio of 3rd-level dark priests (let's say) got lucky, found a little artifact, made a fortuitous sacrifice, the zombies are tied to the adventure location, etc.

 

[Warren Okuma]

Treat zombie command as an alternate leadership feat. Prerequisite: Give your diety four con. (The guy had an 18 con, now it's 14...)

 

[Celebrim]

Zombies. Love 'em or hate 'em, you can't ignore 'em. But you can control 'em, with the help of a handy animate dead spell. But, there's a problem.
In order to cast animate dead, you need to be a Cleric of at least 5th level or a wizard/sorcerer of at least 7th level. At which point, you can control 20 HD worth of zombies if you're a cleric (4 x level) or 28 HD worth if you're a wizard. 20 HD worth of zombies is 10 normal, human-sized zombies.

I'm not sure I understand the problem. In what is a 5th level character controlling 10 2HD zombies an inappropriate challenge for say a 3rd or 4th level party of characters? Or a 7th level controlling 14 zombies, for say a 4th or 5th level party?

I grant you that at some point, 'zombie master' is going to no longer be a really effective concept as the party's level increases, but for low level characters it sounds find to me.

So, here's my question. How do you overcome this? How do you make zombies more challenging without this meaning there has to be less of them?

Hmmm... ok, several possibilities.

1) Environment: Zombies don't have a Con score, so they generally can ignore Fort saves completely, and the environment entirely. So you can have the zombie master lair in an environment which is either very cold, very hot, and/or poisonous and its all the same to the zombies. Zombies also can't drown, so an environment with pools of deep water for zombies to bull rush foes into could be fun.
2) Buffs: Core rules, the simplest way to do this is with unhallow attached to some useful spell, no doubt cast around the evil necromancers lair/secret temple. Between the protection from turning, the protection from good, and some nice debuff like bane, this can make a fight with the zombies somewhat tougher. There are probably some PrC's/non-core spells out there for enhancing necromancy (Dread Necromancer for instance), but if it was me I'd smith up some house feats in a necromancy chain that buffed the animated creatures (higher hitpoints on the die, higher natural armor bonus, higher attributes, etc.) under your control and/or increased the maximum hit dice you control. There are similar feats/class abilities out there for summoning creatures which you can use as inspiration. Just be fair about it, don't create anything you would be afraid to give to a PC (or which is so weak a PC would never consider it). If you want some help, let me know.
3) Who needs control: Zombies don't have to be under the direct contol of the necromancer to be useful. Uncontrolled zombies can still be left as gaurds in unused areas, or sent out in expendable waves to wreck havoc. This is particularly true for necromatic clerics, who can always rebuke any undead that they encounter as needed.
4) Throw in a few higher level undead. A few Juju zombies, ghasts, or such thrown into the mix as allies/minions of the necromancer can boost EL's as needed.