Thelanis and Lamannia

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

I was wondering about some of the inhabitants of these two planes.

Lamannia is described as a realm of wild, untouched nature. Thelanis is a mysterious realm of legends and magic, and strongly associated with the fey, all shown very nicely in Keith Baker's Gates of Night novel. 

Now, I was wondering about some of the fey creatures which have not only exceptionally strong ties to nature, but ties that actually define them. These would, in the 3.5 Monster Manual, largely be the dryad and, to a lesser extend, the nymph. Both are put, per the 3.5. ECS, in Thelanis (p.99), which fits considering the strong mystical flavour and real-world legends about these nature spirits. Wood and water spirits were, after all, famous for charming people, drawing them into a world where time worked differently, and for being utterly unpredictable, helpful at one time, but using terrifying curses at others. That fits Thelanis superbly. Yet the dryad is tied to a tree, the nymph has a strong relationship with a lake, both of which seem connected to Lamannia.

So I was wondering how people go about this. Is it possible for creature to be connected to two planes at the same time? Say, a dryad being created when Thelanis touches an exceptional tree? Where do nature spirits - your traditional Greek river-gods[1], for instance, who are equally mystical (Thelanis) and naturebound (Lamannia) fit in?

Many thanks!

[1] N.b. On Eberron, they would naturally not be gods, though, like Radiant Idols, could get themselves worshipped as such by intent or accident (as the Greensingers do, though not under the label of god). 

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

Personally, I focus on Lamannia as being about primal nature: iconic entities and elemental forms. While the Greensingers would take issue with this, in my opinion the Fey of Thelanis aren't part of nature... not even the dryad. The Fey are the magic we wish was in the world. The dryad is the spirit we want the tree to have, when we see the slender willow and think of it as a beautiful woman. But again, there's nothing natural about a tree having a spirit that resembles a human woman; it's something magical, a story we want to believe.

For me, this is what Thelanis is. The realm of stories. The realm of the magic we want in the world. The Fey reflect hopes, fears, secret and subconscious desires.

By contrast, Lamannia is pure and inhuman nature. There is nothing human about the primal tree of Lamannia; but it is the healthiest, most vibrant tree of its type you can possibly imagine. Rather than attaching a naiad to a stream, I'll put a water elemental in there: sentient on some level, but completely inhuman. The first adventure I ran in Lamannia was when a group of adventurers were stranded there; the airship they were on passed through an airborne manifest zone, and when they entered the plane the bound elemental instantly broke free. They crashed in what seemed to be a sizable canyon. As they started to explore, the captain of the vessel was snatched away by a roc; the group sniped at it, but they were low-level characters and couldn't really touch a roc. As the roc cleared the top of the canyon, IT was snatched up by a lynx... a lynx that was over two miles from tip to tail, which just leapt over their "canyon" in a single bound. At that moment they realized just how small they were in this place... how small they were in the pure face of nature.

Needless to say, they dealt with the things on their scale in that canyon... the survivors of other crashed ships, a community of lycanthropes who escaped the Purge by fleeing to Lamannia, elemental forces, etc. But again, to me, the key to Lamannia is that there is nothing HUMAN or anthropomorphic about its native inhabitants; it's pure, primal nature. 

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Sorry for taking so long to respond. It has been a busy week, and your answers deserve more than a quick thanks - though a thank you is absolutely necessary! 

Personally, I focus on Lamannia as being about primal nature: iconic entities and elemental forms. While the Greensingers would take issue with this, in my opinion the Fey of Thelanis aren't part of nature... not even the dryad. The Fey are the magic we wish was in the world. The dryad is the spirit we want the tree to have, when we see the slender willow and think of it as a beautiful woman. But again, there's nothing natural about a tree having a spirit that resembles a human woman; it's something magical, a story we want to believe.

For me, this is what Thelanis is. The realm of stories. The realm of the magic we want in the world. The Fey reflect hopes, fears, secret and subconscious desires.

This clears up my problems. Thank you! Although one question remains: whose stories does Thelanis embody? The fey we use in D&D are, by necessity, built around human stories, hopes, fears, etc. But the planes predate the mortal races, even the dragons and the (immortal) rakshasa. So, was Thelanis at first simply an empty plane filled with potential, and got populated by and by? Which would mean that somewhere at its core, there are things embodying the fears and hopes of the races of the Age of Demons.

Does Thelanis grow and change with the stories, once enough people on Eberron believe in them (whilst also influencing them, if someone stumbles into the easily-reachable Faerie Court - as seems to be suggested (by one of the characters, Daine, IIRC, never explicitly by you, of course in Gates of Night, and in the tale of Marusan in the Fading Dream)? 

Would you go as far as, say, Terry Pratchett in the Discworld novels, to say that some forces in Thelanis could and do try to shape stories: make sure the poor, exploited girl marries the prince; make sure there are birds to eat the breadcrumbs left behind by Hänsel and Gretel? At least, when Thelanis is close, and perhaps as a way to survive (in a fashion similar to the Quori trying to prevent the Turn of the Age). Other agencies trying to guide the path of the future would probably get rather exasperated at such "flighty" interference with whatever preferred path of the Prophecy they seek to realise.

By contrast, Lamannia is pure and inhuman nature. There is nothing human about the primal tree of Lamannia; but it is the healthiest, most vibrant tree of its type you can possibly imagine. Rather than attaching a naiad to a stream, I'll put a water elemental in there: sentient on some level, but completely inhuman.

So to check if I got this: A naiad (or equivalent water-fey) in the river would represent the beauty, freshness, but also capriciousness of the stream, rather than its being a natural feature. It can demand offerings, get angry if observed, lure people their death, fall desperately in love, and do all those things which stories tell about them, and which cause people even today to throw coins into fountains. Whereas a water elemental would just be the river, in a sense, and care neither about offerings thrown into it, nor about mills and bridges (as fey do, one way or another, in the stories), just so long as it can flow - even if it might destroy those same mills because it feels like rushing too strongly - no more opinionated, or open to reason, than an actual river would be.

This leaves me with some problem regarding those elementals which are largely described as having very human-like traits, and motivations that go beyond the purely natural. The avatars of Elemental Evil (and Good) would be the biggest ones; Lamannia, as nature, seems to not care about good or evil, and if there are Lords of Lamannia, they would only "rule" because they happen to be the toughest things around, but not necessarily of more than animal intelligence (as the Lion is considered King of Animals). Then there are the Elemental Wierds: granted, they are alien, but with interests and connections to divinatory magic which was believed to reside in the elements by many cultures: would their ties make them fey rather than elementals?

The first adventure I ran in Lamannia was when a group of adventurers were stranded there; the airship they were on passed through an airborne manifest zone, and when they entered the plane the bound elemental instantly broke free. They crashed in what seemed to be a sizable canyon. As they started to explore, the captain of the vessel was snatched away by a roc; the group sniped at it, but they were low-level characters and couldn't really touch a roc. As the roc cleared the top of the canyon, IT was snatched up by a lynx... a lynx that was over two miles from tip to tail, which just leapt over their "canyon" in a single bound. At that moment they realized just how small they were in this place... how small they were in the pure face of nature.

Needless to say, they dealt with the things on their scale in that canyon... the survivors of other crashed ships, a community of lycanthropes who escaped the Purge by fleeing to Lamannia, elemental forces, etc. But again, to me, the key to Lamannia is that there is nothing HUMAN or anthropomorphic about its native inhabitants; it's pure, primal nature. 

That is a great image! I would have liked to see the faces of your players (and their characters). It also explains the difference between nature as embodied by Eberron, and nature as embodied by Lamannia. I guess druid sects like the Gatekeepers would also prefer not to have Lamannia cross over too strongly.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

This clears up my problems. Thank you! Although one question remains: whose stories does Thelanis embody?

All of them. I'll point out that in The Gates of Night, Xu'sasar encounters the ghost scorpion - an important piece of the stories of her people, but one with no meaning to the other travelers. Likewise, she interprets the entire experience in a different way than the others. The fey we are FAMILIAR with reflect human stories; that doesn't mean there aren't OTHER fey in Thelanis who are based around Goblin stories, or a dryad-equivalent based on how a Goblin sees a tree.

With that said, some fey concepts are relatively universal; everyone has to deal with Winter sometime. In that case, what you might have is a single spirit that's perceived in a different form by different beings; so a human sees a Ghaele of Winter as an elf-like human, while a Goblin might see a bugbear with ice-crusted fur. The Ghaele might interact with human and goblin in a different way, instinctively adopting the customs they expect from their tales. It's the same approach I've suggested for the Daelkyr... if you're familiar with Gaiman's Sandman comics, it's the same way beings of different races and cultures all see Dream through their own lens.

So as humans, we tend to see the human face of Thelanis... but there are many others.

Would you go as far as, say, Terry Pratchett in the Discworld novels, to say that some forces in Thelanis could and do try to shape stories: make sure the poor, exploited girl marries the prince; make sure there are birds to eat the breadcrumbs left behind by Hänsel and Gretel?

Absolutely. This is essentially the basis of the plot of The Fading Dream, and one can argue that the Queen of Dusk does a similar thing throughout The Dreaming Dark.

There's also the chicken and egg question. Does the story appear in Thelanis because of its popularity in Eberron, or does the story BEGIN in Thelanis and leak out into the mortal world?

So to check if I got this: A naiad (or equivalent water-fey) in the river would represent the beauty, freshness, but also capriciousness of the stream, rather than its being a natural feature. It can demand offerings, get angry if observed, lure people their death, fall desperately in love, and do all those things which stories tell about them, and which cause people even today to throw coins into fountains. Whereas a water elemental would just be the river, in a sense, and care neither about offerings thrown into it, nor about mills and bridges (as fey do, one way or another, in the stories), just so long as it can flow - even if it might destroy those same mills because it feels like rushing too strongly - no more opinionated, or open to reason, than an actual river would be.

That's what I'm suggesting.

This leaves me with some problem regarding those elementals which are largely described as having very human-like traits, and motivations that go beyond the purely natural. The avatars of Elemental Evil (and Good) would be the biggest ones... Then there are the Elemental Wierds: granted, they are alien, but with interests and connections to divinatory magic which was believed to reside in the elements by many cultures: would their ties make them fey rather than elementals?

Yes; note that the elemental weird in the Dreaming Dark stories is actually serving the ends of the Queen of Dusk, and there's a distinct possibility that she actually IS the Queen of Dusk. There are elementals in Lamannia, but that doesn't mean ALL elementals are from Lamannia. Key point: The fiends of Fernia. A balor from Fernia isn't an elemental. It has an anthropomorphic frame of reference and embodies mortal fears of the wild, uncontrolled power of flame. It is an "elemental entity of fire" - but it is a completely different order of being from the pure elemental which gets bound to an airship. The elementals of Lamannia, on the other hand, fall into that latter camp. So in other words, a force of Elemental Evil would be more likely to come from Fernia or a similar plane than Lamannia; to a certain degree one could argue that the princes are somewhat redundant since Eberron places fiends in elemental planes.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

All of them. I'll point out that in The Gates of Night, Xu'sasar encounters the ghost scorpion - an important piece of the stories of her people, but one with no meaning to the other travelers. Likewise, she interprets the entire experience in a different way than the others. The fey we are FAMILIAR with reflect human stories; that doesn't mean there aren't OTHER fey in Thelanis who are based around Goblin stories, or a dryad-equivalent based on how a Goblin sees a tree.

I really liked how Xu'sasar behaved so differently from her Khorvairian companions when they met the scorpion and the double-headed serpent, and (not necessarily related to the fey), her misunderstanding about how you get food at an inn.

It would be interesting to see what kind of fey the goblins have; as for the embodiments of the fears and hopes of dragons and fiends, that most be something truly terrible.

With that said, some fey concepts are relatively universal; everyone has to deal with Winter sometime. In that case, what you might have is a single spirit that's perceived in a different form by different beings; so a human sees a Ghaele of Winter as an elf-like human, while a Goblin might see a bugbear with ice-crusted fur. The Ghaele might interact with human and goblin in a different way, instinctively adopting the customs they expect from their tales. It's the same approach I've suggested for the Daelkyr... if you're familiar with Gaiman's Sandman comics, it's the same way beings of different races and cultures all see Dream through their own lens.

I'll have to try Gaiman's comics. I'm afraid, I haven't gotten around to that yet, but I love Good Omens / Bad Omens and am rather intrigued by American Gods, based on a Dragon Article a while ago.  

There's also the chicken and egg question. Does the story appear in Thelanis because of its popularity in Eberron, or does the story BEGIN in Thelanis and leak out into the mortal world?

And what do the inhabitants of Thelanis think about this? The Eladrin in The Fading Dream do not seem to be overly impressed with this "world of mud". Do they consider their plane to be the real prime material, and themselves to be in the centre of the orrery?

That's what I'm suggesting.

Thanks! That gives me a lot to work with.

Yes; note that the elemental weird in the Dreaming Dark stories is actually serving the ends of the Queen of Dusk, and there's a distinct possibility that she actually IS the Queen of Dusk. There are elementals in Lamannia, but that doesn't mean ALL elementals are from Lamannia. Key point: The fiends of Fernia. A balor from Fernia isn't an elemental. It has an anthropomorphic frame of reference and embodies mortal fears of the wild, uncontrolled power of flame. It is an "elemental entity of fire" - but it is a completely different order of being from the pure elemental which gets bound to an airship. The elementals of Lamannia, on the other hand, fall into that latter camp. So in other words, a force of Elemental Evil would be more likely to come from Fernia or a similar plane than Lamannia; to a certain degree one could argue that the princes are somewhat redundant since Eberron places fiends in elemental planes.

Thanks again. Incidentally, speaking of Fernia: there also seem to be a rare few fire-related celestials on Sea of Fire, if I recall correctly. Could a shift in power make the plan good-aligned - in the same way Dal Quor (supposedly) changes between alignments?

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Madfox11:

Thelanis is a plane of hopes, fears and stories. Dol Quor is a plane of dreams. Makes you wonder how those two interact because the two spheres are very closely related. It certainly would explain why eladrin don't sleep and are remarkably resistant to mind influencing magic.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Syltorian:

Thelanis is a plane of hopes, fears and stories. Dol Quor is a plane of dreams. Makes you wonder how those two interact because the two spheres are very closely related. It certainly would explain why eladrin don't sleep and are remarkably resistant to mind influencing magic.

This is partially explored in The Fading Dream and the Explore Taer Lian Doresh Dragon Magazine articles. The Cul'sir emperor trapped the eladrin of the Spire of Fading Dreams in Dal Quor during the Age of Giants, using the link of their lord Shan Doresh against them. The Fading Dream quite vividly describes that battle.

They seem to have survived the Turning of the Age, too, which would probably make the current incarnation of the Quori (and the Kalashtar) highly interested in them, and what they know about the last age of their race. 

It would certainly be interesting to have the interrelationship of the planes explored in more detail. Does Thelanis eventually fade into Xoriat, as stories become ever more insane? Does the Lord of Taer Syraen, a personification of Winter, have the same ties to Risia as Shan Doresh had to Dal Quor? What influence does Shavarath have on battles between Yuguloths on Mabar, and conversely, do warrior epics draw from Shavarath (for the pure rage of war) as much as Thelanis (for the actual stories)? All of these planes meet on Eberron, but do they also influence each other, and how?

I am afraid that answers to this would require a Planes of Eberron supplement or a series of magazine articles, not that this is the first place such a book has been asked for.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Madfox11:

This is partially explored in The Fading Dream and the Explore Taer Lian Doresh Dragon Magazine articles. The Cul'sir emperor trapped the eladrin of the Spire of Fading Dreams in Dal Quor during the Age of Giants, using the link of their lord Shan Doresh against them. The Fading Dream quite vividly describes that battle.

That though is only one spire and has no direct impact on the rest. Note that eladrin do not sleep and are highly resistant to magical influence (+5 bonus on saves vs. charm effects). My DM hints in his campaign that it was actually that resistance that got the giants to enslave the eladrin to use them in their war against the quori. Of course, that is something for his campaign since it clashes a bit with the canon timeline, but it fits his story (and that of my PC) quite well. Note that in 3e this might work somewhat better since in 3e elves do not sleep either (unless I am completely misremembering the elf) while in 4e this ability is only retained by eladrin.

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Hellcow:

That though is only one spire and has no direct impact on the rest.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Taer Doresh was a bridge between Dal Quor and Thelanis, and may well have symbolized the link between dream and story. In The Fading Dream, Cadrel relates a story that says that elves don't sleep because they are ashamed of abandoning Taer Doresh to its fate, and thus cannot bear to go to Dal Quor. This is just a story, loosely inspired by Kipling's Just So stories... on the other hand, as Thelanis is the plane of stories, that's more relevant than it would be elsewhere.

With that said, it's worth noting that very few native planar inhabitants sleep. Eberron is a planar crossroads, and the mortals of Eberron are touched and influenced by all the planes; when they sleep, they are drawn across that connection to Dal Quor. Angels, fiends, and the like are creatures of a single plane, with no innate connection to Dal Quor.

Looking back to the underlying philosophical difference between Dal Quor and Thelanis... One could make the argument that stories are consciously shaped and told, while dreams are the stories of the subconscious. Even if a story existed before you tell it, you can decide what spin to put on it; lucid dreamers aside, you can't choose your dream. Furthermore, while stories change and evolve, they tend to do so in a logical way... while the logic of dreams can completely shift from moment to moment. Thus there are similarities between them, certainly, but Dal Quor is a wilder and less predictable place. It's more about raw primal forces and emotions, whereas Thelanis is a little more... refined and defined. Of course, this speaks to the heart of Dal Quor; on the borders you have the areas that are entirely shaped by the minds of mortals, which can be very concretely defined... but which may not last for long at all. Dreams are innately fleeting things, whereas a good story can last forever.

Note that in 3e this might work somewhat better since in 3e elves do not sleep either (unless I am completely misremembering the elf) while in 4e this ability is only retained by eladrin.

I will note that the decision that 4E elves sleep really bothered me... The fact that elves don't sleep plays a role in the Dreaming Dark novels, and is why Xu'sasar can't join the rest of the party in Dal Quor. It's the same sort of thing as the 3E to 3.5E change that afflicted lycanthropes can't pass on the affliction, which undermines the entire foundation of the Lycanthropic Purge; it SEEMS like a trivial change, unless you have a story that's grounded on that one particular detail.


Originally posted by Hellcow:

They seem to have survived the Turning of the Age, too, which would probably make the current incarnation of the Quori (and the Kalashtar) highly interested in them, and what they know about the last age of their race.

They survived the Turning of the Age, but that doesn't mean that they weren't affected and transformed by it. It could be that prior to the turn, they remained fey of Taer Doresh - trapped in Dal Quor, but still true to what they once were. The Turn of the Age ushered in the nightmare reign of il-Lashtavar, and I think it's fair to think that it was this that turned Taer Doresh into Taer Lian Doresh, the fortress of fading dreams. Once they made dreams come true; now they are nightmares.

Of course, one wacky thing to explore would be the idea that the fey of Taer Doresh worked closely with the Quori of the previous age and were one of the motive forces that drove the war between the Quori-Giant war. If so, it clearly didn't work out so well for them - they remain trapped and fading - but it could be that they are in part responsible FOR the last Turn.

Which of course means that if the Kalashtar are correct and the next age is one of light, perhaps il-Yannah woud actually heal the wounds of the Fading Dream...

 

[RealAlHazred]

Originally posted by Madfox11:

With that said, it's worth noting that very few native planar inhabitants sleep. Eberron is a planar crossroads, and the mortals of Eberron are touched and influenced by all the planes; when they sleep, they are drawn across that connection to Dal Quor. Angels, fiends, and the like are creatures of a single plane, with no innate connection to Dal Quor. 

I seem to remember reading somewhere that one of the dangers of wandering through Dal Quor is that you can wander into the dreams of powerful entities such as imprisoned demon lords and dragons. The danger being that these powerful dreams might never release you. I think it was somewhere about not all of the 'good'-aligned quori making it to a kalashtar host and this being potential adventure seeds... Do I misremember? Or is there something about being captured for eternity that forces those demon lords to enter Dal Quor (nowhere else to go)? (Note that of course I am well aware that as a DM this is certainly one of the easiest things to change, just curious about other people's opinions.)