Themes: What's the Catch?

[Nahat Anoj]

I like themes, I just don't like how there really isn't a meaningful way to make custom themes that are can be incorporated in the Character Builder.

 

[abyssaldeath]

I like themes, I just don't like how there really isn't a meaningful way to make custom themes that are can be incorporated in the Character Builder.

To be fair, there really isn't a meaningful way to make a custom anything in the CB.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

the drama some are making over this

running around screaming that the power creep sky if falling.

Is anyone actually doing that in this thread? If you're directing that at me, I think you'll need to reexamine my posts and keep your snark to yourself. If not, good enough.

As to the rest, do you honestly believe a person who made a post 6 months ago suggesting that every character get a free at-will power (the agreed upon power level of these thematic encounter powers by the rest of the thread) useable as an encounter power, so long as it fit their character's "theme", wouldn't have been flamed out of existence? Because I firmly believe that they would have.

You made some pretty good points, but you're also completely kidding yourself if you think a character with a theme, especially a low-heroic character, is not more powerful than one without. I mean...the psionic theme just straight up grants you an extra Power Point. That is the definition of power creep. As I said about backgrounds: just because a theme doesn't turn a campaign on its head and tickle its bum until it starts farting kittens does not mean that it does not increase your power. When you get something for the cost of nothing, that is power creep.

Themes are unequivocally power creep. Is that bad? Doubtful. Is it more fun? Probably. Is it still power creep? It sure is. You even said yourself that it "noticeably increases power", so why are we even opposed on the matter?

You know what'd make a lot more sense to me? If you were still limited to 3 encounter powers maximum.

Yes, the themes give you an extra encounter power... but they aren't super-awesome encounter powers. The effects of some of them are pretty darn close to those of at-will powers...

...so... if themes are a huge power creep, then Diletante was the best racial in the game.

Nobody ever said it was "huge power creep". Your argument does not make sense in light of that fact.

 

[Aegeri]

Is anyone actually doing that in this thread? If you're directing that at me, I think you'll need to reexamine my posts and keep your snark to yourself. If not, good enough.

This is a good description of what you're doing and the hyperbole you employ in your posts IMO.

As to the rest, do you honestly believe a person who made a post 6 months ago suggesting that every character get a free at-will power (the agreed upon power level of these thematic encounter powers by the rest of the thread) useable as an encounter power, so long as it fit their character's "theme", wouldn't have been flamed out of existence? Because I firmly believe that they would have.

Considering we knew about themes six months ago and nobody really did, I can say no they wouldn't have been. Also, Half-Elves have been doing this since 4Es release without major drama, so I'm completely failing to see your point to be honest. Not all races even get universally useful encounter powers or similar.

You made some pretty good points, but you're also completely kidding yourself if you think a character with a theme, especially a low-heroic character, is not more powerful than one without.

Where did I say they weren't? My first post specifically starts out saying "The power increase in heroic is noticeable yes" but I stated that it's not such an incredibly dramatic difference. But again, that it makes early heroic parties more powerful is inherently obvious on numerous levels and not what I disputed. The point of the matter was what effect on the entire game did it have. The answer I found was it made early heroic tier games more fun and less grindy. It also meant you didn't waste your first encounter then "at-will" for the rest of an encounter - the extra option at level 1-3 was a good thing.

I mean...the psionic theme just straight up grants you an extra Power Point. That is the definition of power creep.

Funny, I didn't see that at all and I was playing with it. By epic that extra power point isn't significant at all. At heroic that extra power point was very useful and helped a lot - neither was imbalancing in the encounters I used.

When you get something for the cost of nothing, that is power creep.

Yes, but it is limited and not game imbalancing. It's the effect that matters and if it makes the game more fun and doesn't break the game in any manner that is the single most important aspect.

You even said yourself that it "noticeably increases power", so why are we even opposed on the matter?

Because Themes inherently improve the heroic tier - early heroic tier - considerably from my actual play experience. What actual play experience of themes do you have? I mean, they are available right now for anyone to try. Get one of the Dark Sun adventures, make some characters and try themed vs. unthemed characters. See how it compares and what it does to the game at low heroic - where I stand by the fact they have the biggest effect. Then make some level 30 doods and see how they affect the game (minimally from what I could tell).

I'll bet you the extra encounter rapidly loses its significance as you level up, while making early heroic tier battles more fun, varied and even reducing grindyness of hard low level encounters. All without all of a sudden magically trivializing encounters.

You know what'd make a lot more sense to me? If you were still limited to 3 encounter powers maximum.

You can do this, but it's not required and these themes are not breaking anything about 4Es assumptions or similar. It works well, especially when it has the most impact and doesn't break the game at later levels. Also, way to absolutely bone races with encounter powers. So you get 3 encounter powers and then have to choose between a pretty weak racial and (for example) Come and Get It? I can't say I like your idea here very much.

Nobody ever said it was "huge power creep". Your argument does not make sense in light of that fact.

Your posts sure don't give me that impression to be frank. When they add multiple things on and we get PCs getting 5+ encounters at level 1 from various free things then we have a problem. Themes do not add a problem and are a balanced, interesting addition to the game. Especially when they add more of them so there is a better selection.

Edit: I have this core problem with your arguments as Power Creep is a term most commonly used for deriding poorly executed additions to a game that over time "break it". There is always natural power creep in the life of any RPG, this is a part of the hobby and why having a living DM is often very handy. The point here though is that while themes increase power it's not an out of line increase with the rest of the game. Additionally they are extremely well executed for what they are - so they are not something wizards has simply thrown into the game with no care, thought or attention. The powers are good, but not so exceptional that if you don't have them you're absolutely boned. Yes, at level 1 you're going to feel your themeless characters lack of power compared to someone with a theme. By level 10? 20? 30? The theme is not a major increase anymore and the power gap narrows massively between unthemed and themed characters - which is what I noticed when doing my own little "playtests".

Now I keep stating this over and over, but by themselves Themes are an excellent addition to 4E. When they have the most effect they are at their best, by epic they are another option and are not majorly increasing power (over the whole game). Assuming Wizards isn't incompetent and adds more options on top of themes, the "power creep" will be minimal. To be honest, I actually feel themes would have been a solid mechanic to have from the very start of 4E to begin with. They fix issues I've had with early heroic 4E for a long time now and disappear over time in their impact to the game.

Ultimately that's the point to me: A boost in early heroic where it is warranted and then not changing the game for the worse at epic tier where we don't need a major power increase.

 

[tyrlaan]

When you get something for the cost of nothing, that is power creep.

This right here is the crux (I think) of why anyone is even debating anything here. Aegeri hit on it above.

That's not the definition of power creep to me. To me, for a system change or addition to be defined as power creep it has to be a something that leaves other system bits in the dust. An example of this would be if WotC released a book of new PPs, all of which were decidedly more potent than other PPs already in publication. Suddenly, your existing PPs are obsolete because the new ones are clearly more powerful. Think late lifecycle of 3e and you've got a solid picture of what I see as power creep.

Using this definition, themes are not power creep. They in no way invalidate or make obsolete any aspect of the game. They are a plug in to the system. Just like backgrounds, skill powers, wild talents, and so on.

On the flip side, if your definition of power creep is indeed "getting something for nothing," then it is literally impossible for a game system to not have power creep if it ever releases a product past the first rulebook. Basically, each rulebook provides more options, and these more options definitely are an increase in power, and these options were given over for effectively nothing.

 

[Old Gumphrey]

This is a good description of what you're doing and the hyperbole you employ in your posts IMO.

Your posts sure don't give me that impression to be frank.

Then you need to read more carefully in the future, IMO, because you are doing a very poor job of interpreting my posts, IMO.

The point here though is that while themes increase power it's not an out of line increase with the rest of the game.

Yes, it is out of line with the rest of the game, because there's currently not a single other way to get an additional encounter attack power, no matter how weak it may be. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this?

Yes, at level 1 you're going to feel your themeless characters lack of power compared to someone with a theme. By level 10? 20? 30? The theme is not a major increase anymore and the power gap narrows massively between unthemed and themed characters - which is what I noticed when doing my own little "playtests".

So you ran tests at 10, 20, and 30? I'm sure you didn't, but those are bad levels to test at considering your free power gets better at 11 & 21. Better examples would be 5th, 15th, and 25th; and I'm fully confident that you'll still notice that you have 25-50% more encounter powers at those levels.

To be honest, I actually feel themes would have been a solid mechanic to have from the very start of 4E to begin with. They fix issues I've had with early heroic 4E for a long time now and disappear over time in their impact to the game.

Aha, the heart of the matter. I guess if I had a big problem with early heroic tier, I would also viciously defend mechanics that fixed my problem. Fair enough. Personally, I don't think using at-will powers is inherently boring, so the case for stacking a free encounter power on an existing character is mostly lost on me.

Ultimately that's the point to me: A boost in early heroic where it is warranted and then not changing the game for the worse at epic tier where we don't need a major power increase.

I played 4e 1-21 in a single ongoing campaign. In heroic tier, I used a lot of at-will powers. Once I hit 11th level and got my 4 encounter powers, I used an at-will power four times in the entire paragon tier (not counting my warden's fury interrupt attack or basic attacks), so approximately once every 2 levels. Other characters used their at-wills only slightly more often. Given that our average encounter lasted 4 or 5 rounds, and we had enough daily powers to use one in nearly every battle, there was little need for them.

What this means is, if we had a 5th encounter power that was absolutely better than our at-wills, we probably wouldn't have even used an at-will power at all, and to me that's bad game design. YMMV, of course.

This right here is the crux (I think) of why anyone is even debating anything here. Aegeri hit on it above.

That's not the definition of power creep to me. To me, for a system change or addition to be defined as power creep it has to be a something that leaves other system bits in the dust. An example of this would be if WotC released a book of new PPs, all of which were decidedly more potent than other PPs already in publication. Suddenly, your existing PPs are obsolete because the new ones are clearly more powerful. Think late lifecycle of 3e and you've got a solid picture of what I see as power creep.

Using this definition, themes are not power creep. They in no way invalidate or make obsolete any aspect of the game. They are a plug in to the system. Just like backgrounds, skill powers, wild talents, and so on.

On the flip side, if your definition of power creep is indeed "getting something for nothing," then it is literally impossible for a game system to not have power creep if it ever releases a product past the first rulebook. Basically, each rulebook provides more options, and these more options definitely are an increase in power, and these options were given over for effectively nothing.

False dichotomy. While more options increase widespread versatility, it's ultimately how many of those options you can have at the same time. Themes increase this number by 25-50% based on level.

 

[tyrlaan]

False dichotomy. While more options increase widespread versatility, it's ultimately how many of those options you can have at the same time. Themes increase this number by 25-50% based on level.

I'm assuming this is in reference to only my last paragraph. If that's the case, I see your point.

But I'm still curious if we're operating under similar definitions of power creep in the first place. Do you agree with the rest of what I said?

 

[The Little Raven]

I'm assuming this is in reference to only my last paragraph. If that's the case, I see your point.

But I'm still curious if we're operating under similar definitions of power creep in the first place. Do you agree with the rest of what I said?

This appears to be the case to me. And it's fairly common that one person will argue a point against a thread full of people, based on the fact that their definition of the term does not match the others.

Wikipedia has the term as I've always used it, from back in my days of video game development...

Power creep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Power creep is the gradual unbalancing of a game due to successive releases of new content. The phenomenon may be caused by a number of different factors and, in extreme cases, can be damaging to the longevity of the game in which it takes place.

As new expansions or updates are released, new game mechanics or effects are introduced, making it increasingly difficult for older content to remain in balance without changes. Usually, this means new content releases grow successively more powerful while older content becomes relatively underpowered.

 

[Aegeri]

Then you need to read more carefully in the future, IMO, because you are doing a very poor job of interpreting my posts, IMO.

Not really, your only argument is "This is power creep and OMG the sky is falling" without any logical reason beyond that - that's my interpretation. You've not explained how themes imbalance encounters. You've not given me any indication you've ever played with themes vs. without, not to mention how easy this is to do. You can make a themed party and use it in the same encounters, just ignore the themes power. Makes playtesting it a total breeze.

That you haven't done this and make increasingly ridiculous claims like it increases a PCs power by 25% at epic is just the icing on the cake. Oh and implying I'm dishonest, I got a kick out of that one for sure. You're welcome to do a playtest yourself at 5/15/25 or 1-3/19/30 if you wish. You're not going to find the themes do anything particularly special except add another option before "at-will" powers are required at high levels - just like I did. Neither will you find a themed party is going to get through paragon/epic encounters any easier than a non-themed party. That's because themes are a well thought out and balanced addition to the game.

Yes, it is out of line with the rest of the game, because there's currently not a single other way to get an additional encounter attack power, no matter how weak it may be. Why do you refuse to acknowledge this?

There are lots of feats that grant an extra encounter power as well actually, like Vistani Heritage, so getting further encounter powers isn't uncommon or something that can't be done. Similarly, items can also grant further encounter powers of various strengths and so the system already can sustain more encounter powers than you think PCs actually have. Throw a racial power on that and you actually have more encounter powers than you actually think PCs have.

So I don't acknowledge it because the point is irrelevant and there already ways TO get more encounter powers. That is what YOU refuse to acknowledge.

So you ran tests at 10, 20, and 30? I'm sure you didn't

Thank you for implying that I'm inherently dishonest.

If you go back and read my earlier post, I stated I looked at 1-3 (my campaigns playtest), upper paragon (level 19 in this case) and level 30. I suggested to you to run tests at level 1/10/20/30 or whatever else. You'll soon find that the themes power has far less effect the higher level you go.

Better examples would be 5th, 15th, and 25th; and I'm fully confident that you'll still notice that you have 25-50% more encounter powers at those levels.

By fifth level with a racial encounter power, a PC will have:

1 (Racial)
2 Theme
3 Encounter 1
4 Encounter 2

By my maths that is 25% of his encounter powers coming from the theme. At level 5. Do you think your 25% prediction for level 30 is going to survive out of curiosity?

Hell let's throw in Vistani Heritage as the level 1 feat too, now he has:

1 (Racial)
2 Vistani Heritage
3 Theme
4 Class/Theme Encounter 1
5 Class/Theme Encounter 2

Now we've got the encounter powers contributed by the theme down to 20% - even less impressive. What I think you need to go and do is have a look at how many powers a PC has by 30. Especially considering the number of magical items a level 30 character will have, some of whom will have encounter powers of their own as well.

Without a theme and level 16, for the record taking the above:

1 Racial
2 Vistani Heritage
3 Class/Theme Encounter 1
4 Class/Theme Encounter 2
5 Class/Theme Encounter 3
6 Paragon Path Encounter Power (can vary in level though)

So I was able to get 6 encounter powers here pretty easily. Yet you're sticking to the line that a PC has only what, 3 or 4? I don't think so. Noting that I am sure if I equipped a level 16 character I could get some magical items with an encounter power as well, adding to the above.

I would also viciously defend mechanics that fixed my problem

Much like you implying I'm inherently dishonest? I'm being vicious? Mind is boggled at this point.

I played 4e 1-21 in a single ongoing campaign.

I've run about nine campaigns in 4E and two were in high epic, one to level 25 and one to level 30. I run 3 games for the record. The two I've tried with themes didn't look significantly more powerful - that I would change the way I designed encounters - compared to everything I had done previously. More fun, less swingy and less repeatedly using the same at-wills constantly because you have no choice in the matter.

That makes for a better game.

If themes aren't imbalancing the game where they would have the most possible impact - at early heroic - you've got a massive uphill battle explaining how they do a lot to game balance by paragon/epic.

Given that our average encounter lasted 4 or 5 rounds, and we had enough daily powers to use one in nearly every battle, there was little need for them.

And yet you oddly dispute that giving a PC a single extra encounter power isn't going to be a significant difference by paragon/epic. Precisely because everyone has a lot of options encounter power wise, including magical items, from certain feats and similar.

This is exactly why I noted the themes didn't contribute much to paragon and epic fights. For the record, my campaigns have a similar amount of rounds except in exceptionally hard encounters.

]What this means is, if we had a 5th encounter power that was absolutely better than our at-wills, we probably wouldn't have even used an at-will power at all, and to me that's bad game design.

It's really not and you've made absolutely no logical case for this anywhere. Also, I can get 5 encounter powers by level 5 above, so I'm rather confused as to why you think this is exceptional. 5 is in fact completely normal if you have a race with an encounter power.

False dichotomy. While more options increase widespread versatility, it's ultimately how many of those options you can have at the same time. Themes increase this number by 25-50% based on level.

25% to 50%? More like a lot at heroic (where you don't have much encounters) and minimally at epic. The party I had at epic had around six encounter powers each (Racial + 3 class + Paragon Path + Epic Destiny + Items + Multiclass + Class Features), if I include magical items and racial it was substantially higher. Honestly, do you even include all magical items and other varied options in 4E in this?

As you've conceded the core point and have started claiming I'm dishonest, instead of actually arguing anything that would support your point through actual play experience, I feel we're done here.