Theological Question and The End

[EvilPheemy]

Being a recent, very happy owner of Tyranny Games' The End I've started tossing around campaign ideas. But I've run into a small snag.

Does anyone know where the term Nephilim comes from? I believe it refers to a legend where an Earthly choir of Angels took human wives, and the Nephilim were their offspring. However, I cannot find any direct reference in the King James Version of the Bible.

So, I'm looking for those Theological Scholars out there who might be able to point me to where the Nephilim originated.

BTW, if any of the Tyranny Games crew reads this little post. Well done folks! Very well-done indeed!

 

[Wicht]

Genesis 6:4.

But you will not find the word in the KJV. They and the translators of the NKJV translate the word as giant. The NIV uses the word Nephilim.

 

[Wicht]

The word is also in Numbers 13:33

 

[Barendd Nobeard]

The word is also in Numbers 13:33

Thanks to Wicht's citation, let's look in the ol' Parallel Bible (KJ, NIV, Living, RSV) and in the Catholic Bible.

Love the word differences:

King James - giants, men of renown
NIV - Nephilim, , men of renown
Living - giants, "of whom so many legends are told"
RSV - Nephilim, men of renown
CB - giants, men of renown

I especially like the "Living Bible" description of what these giants were. The NIV says "when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them" but the Living Bible says, "when the evil beings from the spirit world were sexually involved with human women."

This is all right before the Noah story--when God is grieved by man's behavior and decides to destroy the world. So (in context) it does not appear that the Nephilim were anyone(thing) to write home about....

 

[Wicht]

I especially like the "Living Bible" description of what these giants were. The NIV says "when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them" but the Living Bible says, "when the evil beings from the spirit world were sexually involved with human women."

This is an example of why I am not overly fond of the Living Bible. There are several opinions in scholarly circles as to the meaning of this verse. The Living Bible gives you one of these opinions but presents it as the only opinion through its paraphrase.

There is really no reason though to translate "sons of God" as "evil beings from the spirit world."

Sorry to rant, its a pet peeve of mine.

 

[Celebrim]

I agree regarding paraphrases.

As to the meaning of the verse, I'm hesitant to speculate. I'm sure it hasn't been clear to anyone in thousands of years what it is supposed to mean. It probably wasn't even clear to the Leviticus editors, they just dutifully copied it down and argued over its meaning just as we do now. However, since we are specifically talking about using the theory in a fictional context...

WARNING: THEOLOGICAL SPECULATION FROM HERE ON OUT IS JUST THAT AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED A BASIS FOR SERIOUS FAITH OR TAUGHT AS SUCH TO NEW CONVERTS.

A personal theory of mine is that thier were multiple creation events. That is to say, that creation was and is an ongoing process. This would agree with the palentological record and our observations of the world around us. It would also convienently explain how multiple creation accounts slipped into genesis (leaving aside the specific difficulties that entails), and why the Leviticus editors saw no need to try to reconcile multiple accounts (which they could have easily done). The world has not been static since creation, and even a few thousand years (if we want to be fundamentalist without good cause IMO) is a very long time. Four and a half billion years is a very long time, and more than enough time for a creative God to (if it is not too anthromorphic to think so) 'playfully' experiment before getting down to more 'serious' business.

In this light, the notion that God started out with several branches of humanity is not so startling. Exactly what happened to the others isn't my business (I suspect we killed them), but it is possible that the Nephillim reference refers to a time when humanity could remember that it had several distinct branches - labeled by the author 'Sons of God' (decendents of the Adam creation), and 'daughters of men' (decendents of earlier creation events which the author could not fully comprehend). (BTW, its pretty obvious that the author came from a patriarchal culture isn't it.) People being people, and the 'Sons of God' and the 'daughters of men' apparantly concurring that people are people, put aside racial differences that make the minor differences between modern humans seem trivial, hybridized, with the result being certain genetic disorders, the most notable of which being giganticism.

The likely hybrid in question would have been the Neaderthals who coexisted with us for, well, a very long time. Given the fact that there is some scientific speculation about hybridization, and what we know about Neaderthal physical traits, this makes a very intriguing theory to me.

Of course, its just that, and has no real textual evidence, just as any speculation on this subject is pretty baseless. However, as a theory to introduce into a role playing fictionalization, it has its merits.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Interestingly, the term "Sons of God"--throughout the Old Testament, always refers to Angelic beings, and in the case of Genesis 6:4, it seems that "Fallen Angels" or demons, is what is being referred to. Also interestingly, that particular view was held by all Christian scholars for many, many centuries after Christ. Some have maintained the other major view--that the "Sons of God" referred to the line of Cain, and the "daughters of men" were from the godly line of Seth. However, criticism have been formed against this theory that there wasn't anything especially godly about the line of Seth, and, the view seems to discount predominant scholarship from many scholars of earlier times, who all embraced the interpretation that it was fallen angels involved with human women at the time spoken of in Genesis.

An additional component to the interesting interpretation, is that the mixing of demons and human women corrupted mankind on such a vast scale, that that is the main reason that God is said to have destroyed the world with the Flood. It was done so because all of humanity was corrupted and wicked, and, following the Kinship Redeemer doctrine, understanding the need for an unblemished and perfect bloodline for Christ, that is why God had to destroy the world, so that Christ's line from Adam would be preserved. Of course, the only family, according to the Scriptures that were deemed righteous in God's eyes, was the family of Noah and his children.

An interesting geneology can be traced from Christ, all the way back through to Noah, and hence to Adam and Eve.

Still, fine biblical scholars have embraced both theories with passionate argument and persuasion. It is also interesting to note that Goliath, the giant that David killed, was believed to be 9-foot-six inches tall! Apparently God had sealed up the horde of demons involved with the mating with humans in the deep pit afterwards. Having said that, after the Flood, it seems that a few other demons decided to engage in the same activities as their brethren, thus giving rise to the groups of giants, including a giant city, in the Old Testament.

Very interesting stuff.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Cassiel666]

Los Nephilimos

Nephilim is Hebrew for “fallen ones,” or “those who fell,” though they are actually the offspring of the fallen, who are traditionally believed to have been angels. This alternate version of an angelic fall from grace was mostly edited out of the Christian side of things (i.e. you’ll find it in more places than Gen. 6:1-4 and Num. 13:33, however those places weren’t included in the bible). The fullest (alternate) account of the fall of the sons of God is in the (apocryphal) Book of Enoch, which includes both angels abandoning Heaven to mate with women (and you thought angels were androgynous) and angels unleashing on men evils such as the art of war (a twisted inversion of Promethean fire?). Some versions even place Satan at the head of the fathers of the Nephilim (there really should be a convenient name for the fathers of the Nephilim.. oh well—I’m sure they don’t use the name Satan, but I know they wouldn’t have used Lucifer because that mix-up came later thanks to Tertullian & St. Augustine).

Anyway, back to the question: that’s about all there is on the Nephilim—well, that and the fact that they were supposed to be giants, and Nimrod/Orion is alluded to as being among their number. In any case the descendents of the Nephilim are mentioned as well, like the Anakim and the Rephaim, in Deuteronomy and Joshua (scripture), and Judith, Sirach, Baruch and the Wisdom of Solomon (apocrypha).

I remember a while ago there was an RPG called Nephilim. How does it come up in the product you were referring to?

 

[Wicht]

Some have maintained the other major view--that the "Sons of God" referred to the line of Cain, and the "daughters of men" were from the godly line of Seth.

I believe you have that backwards.

Some think the daughters of men were the offspring of Cain and the sons of God were the more godly men descended from Seth. At least that is the view I have always read.

Originally posted by Cassiel666
This alternate version of an angelic fall from grace was mostly edited out of the Christian side of things (i.e. you’ll find it in more places than Gen. 6:1-4 and Num. 13:33, however those places weren’t included in the bible).

I am not sure we really want to go there here but it was hardly all the Christian's doing. The septuagint had been complete long before the establishment of the church, testifying to the scriptures the Jewish authorities gave credence to. The opinion of the Sadducees aside, who gave credence only to the books of Moses, the accepted Jewish scriptures and the Christian Old Testament contain identical books.

That is not to say there were not books written by Jews which discussed these things in more details, but such books were not routinely considered scripture.

 

[EvilPheemy]

Thank you all very much for your help.

There was a game by Chaosium called "Nephilim" though it was based more on occult mystery than biblical parable. It's been years since I've read the thing, but characters are eternally-reincarnating supernatural beings who metamorph into iconic non-human forms as they realize their magic and heritage.

Their foes were the Templars and Free Masons. It was weird.