D&D (2024) They need to bring back Gather Information in One DnD.

[CapnZapp]

You miss the point, deliberately perhaps. No amount of bringing up other attributes or dilution of charisma will change things is charisma keeps accelerating away from the rest with new abilities cloned from other attributes. The existence of a thread about helping to boost charisma further does not in itself show a need

What is your point?

 

[Undrave]

I still prefer the name 'Streetwise'.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Care to explain?

Study Action

 

[Hriston]

Study Action

It looks like they broke up the Search action into Search and Study to clarify the difference between in-combat uses of Wisdom (Perception) versus Intelligence (Investigation). I don't see how this in-combat action is supposed to cover the type of activity regarding "Rumors, Information, and Legends" described in the OP.

 

[the Jester]

But which skill, is the question?

The game poorly handles the idea "use any skill with any ability". People pick skills assuming they will be used with certain abilities. No point in picking skills if you have to use poor ability scores.

So it's unreasonable to "suddenly" ask for a skill check that normally is associated with a different ability.

It's not unreasonable at all. It's right there in the PH, and in fact, using a Cha (Investigation) check for this is basically already what's in the rules: use Cha to find people to talk to, use Investigation to, well, investigate. Cha (Investigation). Many groups use "odd ability/skill" checks all the time.

The game isn't set up for the idea where you have few big skills that gets used with different abilities in different situations.

But it is. That is exactly how the game is set up right now.

The intrinsic value of keeping the number of skills very low just isn't there.

For instance, using Investigate (Charisma) for gather information or gossip checks is irritating if you have a low Int. Why take a skill you normally suck at? You're much better off convincing your DM you can use Persuasion instead.

The entire problem is created by WotC going overboard with skill reduction.

There may be some truth to this but I really don't think Gather Information is a good example of this. I think various knowledge skills might be closer- what do I roll to see if I recognize a heraldic coat of arms? Int (History) seems the closest, but.. eh.

Not unless people become much better at assigning lower DCs for flat ability rolls.

Do you think the suggested DCs in the PH are too high?

There's also the option of simply allowing an appropriate pc to add their proficiency bonus because it seems right, e.g. "Oh, this is about dwarven culture and you are a dwarf. Make an Int check and add your proficiency bonus." I do this, but I certainly wouldn't suggest that it's common. It seems like a sidebar about it would be a fairly easy solution, yes?

 

[GMMichael]

The game poorly handles the idea "use any skill with any ability". People pick skills assuming they will be used with certain abilities. No point in picking skills if you have to use poor ability scores.

So, if you have poor ability scores you should just forfeit your proficiency bonus? A player would rather have -2 to a check than 0?

For instance, using Investigate (Charisma) for gather information or gossip checks is irritating if you have a low Int. Why take a skill you normally suck at? You're much better off convincing your DM you can use Persuasion instead.

How does one normally suck at a skill? Even if that's possible, the reason to take the skill would be to...drum roll... stop sucking at it.

A PC isn't going to "convince" me to use Persuasion. The character must have an intent that leads to a check - it's not the check determining what the course of action is.

The entire problem is created by WotC going overboard with skill reduction.

This is harsh. WotC did its darndest to make a game that runs smoother than 3e. But I believe it used 3e designers to accomplish this (maybe not the best call). We should applaud their efforts, even if they failed.

Gather Information is not an inherently more difficult task. Flat ability checks are by design more difficult if the DCs remain constant because you don't add your proficiency bonus to the roll, because there's no skill associated which you can be proficient in.

I think this is saying, "because there's no Gather Information skill which would apply a proficiency bonus, gathering information is more difficult." Except the DM sets the difficulty, so why would the DM raise the difficulty upon discovering that the PC doesn't get a proficiency bonus?

 

[Hriston]

This was prompted by me viewing this clip here.
Where players were struggling to figure out how to learn about the world and infomation in a setting, or to gather information on how to investigate a scenario. Andi realized what was missing from 5e/One Dnd, is the old Gather information skill.

In every other edition of DnD even the original, their has been a way for players to actually gather information from rumor tables, and learn about how to investigate or navigate in a setting, to learn about the world.

In the Original DnD it was this mechanic.

This loosely carried on in B/X-ADnD.

In later editions it became this.

Even 4e had this in the Streetwise skill...until 5e.
5e mostly removed this mechanic from the game and it makes the game harder to run and play.

Before players had a good framework of how to interact with the setting to learn info about whats going on, and get knowledge on rumors, NPCs, or things they are interested in, and DM's can use this framework to prep around this, making it easier for them.
Now we dont have this, so a lot of new players, are just lost in space, not knowing how to interact or engage espeically in a more open scenario without a way to gather information about what they are interested in.

And DM's lost a way to prep hooks in a player-driven manner, and a way to prep content and guide players too it. Its harder to run floating NPCs since their is no actual good player driven way for players to just find these NPCs, you basically have to shove them in their face, and kinda rail them into them. And it feels bad, and not quite good at all.

The lack of this basic mechanic that has been featured in most editions of DnD is startling and the effects of it has lead to moments when players are just flailing around not even knowing a basic default method of engaging with the world and setting, in a meaningful way.
And i hope that we get it back in One DnD/5e 2024, because it would make the lives of players and DMs a bit easier, and open up more doors to nonlinear play?
How do you feel about this?

TLDR: Gather information was a cool player driven mechanic for players to learn and interact with information and characters in the world, and they removed it from 5e despite being a mechanic in most editions of the game, and its left a terrible hole in DnD's gameplay loop and i think it should comeback proper.

Funnily, according to the rule you posted from OD&D, the correct response for the DM of tabletopnotch to have made was "Yes, there is an information shop! It's called the tavern!"

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Not unless people become much better at assigning lower DCs for flat ability rolls.

Gather Information is not an inherently more difficult task. Flat ability checks are by design more difficult if the DCs remain constant because you don't add your proficiency bonus to the roll, because there's no skill associated which you can be proficient in.

So, do you not believe in flat ability checks at all? Does every ability check needs to be tied to a proficiency bonus via skills or tools?

 

[DarkCrisis]

PC walks up to bartender/gaurd/sage: “Hi, I’d like some info.”

 

[GMMichael]

PC walks up to bartender/gaurd/sage: “Hi, I’d like some info.”

Yes, but from what I can tell, the premise of the thread is that a PC can't do something without first having a skill to roll. And it must be unambiguously tied to one ability score.

Which makes me wonder if ODD is the appropriate forum for this.