They've got a Cave Troll...

[mmadsen]

Re: Actually.

I found out Andy Collins has already converted one, and I'm planning to use that, ironically though LOTR is also where he got the idea for the Manyshot epic feat.

How is that ironic?

 

[mmadsen]

Re: Re: They've got a Cave Troll...

I would take either an ogre or a hill giant, up his AC, and call him a cave troll.

I'd like to point out that an Ogre has +5 Natural Armor -- as tough as mail -- and a Hill Giant has +9 Natural Armor -- tougher than full plate (which arguably doesn't exist in Middle Earth) and probably tougher than First-Age Dwarf-forged mail (+3 mail?).

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: They've got a Cave Troll...

I'd like to point out that an Ogre has +5 Natural Armor -- as tough as mail -- and a Hill Giant has +9 Natural Armor -- tougher than full plate (which arguably doesn't exist in Middle Earth) and probably tougher than First-Age Dwarf-forged mail (+3 mail?).

Big creatures get Natural Armour bonuses to AC to represent not just tough hide, but also the difficulty of hitting them in a place where it hurts. If you have a 3-foot-long sword blade, and you're fighting something that's 20 feet tall, you'll usually find it a bit harder to target the vulnerable spots.

 

[mmadsen]

Big creatures get Natural Armour bonuses to AC to represent not just tough hide, but also the difficulty of hitting them in a place where it hurts. If you have a 3-foot-long sword blade, and you're fighting something that's 20 feet tall, you'll usually find it a bit harder to target the vulnerable spots.

An Ogre is 8' tall, and a Hill Giant is 10'6" tall -- not that your point isn't perfectly valid. My point wasn't that Hill Giants have mithril skin, just that their stats make them as tough to hurt as a warrior in mithril mail. They don't necessarily need extra AC.

 

[Alcamtar]

IIRC, Tolkien saw ents as a sort of giant, and trolls were corrupted from ents just as orcs were corrupted from elves. OTOH
I might be misremembering. Trolls turn to stone because they are made of stone, given life by powers of darkness which are dispelled by sunlight. I'm not sure how this ties in with the ents, except that they are supposed to be earthy primal forces too. Remember how they could attack stone and were as old and strong as the hills?

Anyway, I'd probably use a Stone Giant as a basis for a cave troll. It doesn't need to be 12 feet tall unless you just want it to be. The cave troll also seemed to have some minor magical ability -- remember how it challenged Gandalf's magic over a door? Maybe give it 4th level Sorcerer abilities with some subtle stuff like Cause Fear, Spider Climb, True Strike, and Knock or Scare.

That ought to be quite nasty at CR 12, especially if he's backed up by a load of orcs.

 

[Desdichado]

HIJACKED THREAD ALERT!!

Alcamtar:
IIRC, Tolkien saw ents as a sort of giant, and trolls were corrupted from ents just as orcs were corrupted from elves. OTOH
I might be misremembering. Trolls turn to stone because they are made of stone, given life by powers of darkness which are dispelled by sunlight. I'm not sure how this ties in with the ents, except that they are supposed to be earthy primal forces too. Remember how they could attack stone and were as old and strong as the hills?

Actually, the word ent (and ettin) are based on old/middle english words for giant. I've mentioned this before, but the orcs as corrupted elves is problematic (Christopher Tolkien "assembled" The Silmarillion from various of his father's writings, many of which were written decades apart from each other. That part is from earlier writings while later writings indicate that he was probably abandoning the whole idea of orcs as corrupted elves) and the trolls as corrupted ents is much moreso. I know Treebeard said as much, but in regard to that specific statement, JRRT as mentioned in Letters that Treebeard is a character and he, although wise, does not know all things. Taking whatever he says as "gospel" isn't advisable.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I thought it was the Balrog that challenged Gandalf over the door.

Anyway, I'd probably use a Stone Giant as a basis for a cave troll. It doesn't need to be 12 feet tall unless you just want it to be. The cave troll also seemed to have some minor magical ability -- remember how it challenged Gandalf's magic over a door? Maybe give it 4th level Sorcerer abilities with some subtle stuff like Cause Fear, Spider Climb, True Strike, and Knock or Scare.

That ought to be quite nasty at CR 12, especially if he's backed up by a load of orcs.

 

[el-remmen]

I thought it was the Balrog that challenged Gandalf over the door.

I beleive it was. . .

 

[mmadsen]

Anyway, I'd probably use a Stone Giant as a basis for a cave troll.

Although the Stone part of the Stone Giant makes sense for a Cave Troll, the other stats don't match nearly as well as the Hill Giant. A Stone Giant has Dex 15, Int 10, and Cha 11 -- not very Cave Troll. A Hill Giant has Dex 8, Int 6, and Cha 7 -- very Cave Troll.

Feats are similar. Stone Giant: Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Precise Shot. Only the Power Attack really fits. Hill Giant: Cleave, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatclub). They all fit perfectly.

The cave troll also seemed to have some minor magical ability -- remember how it challenged Gandalf's magic over a door?

As others have already pointed out, that was the Balrog.

 

[333 Dave]

Besides,IIRC, Gandalf himself said that the magic seal could still be broken by strength, much like Arcane Lock or Hold Portal just ups the DC to bust the door in.