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D&D 5E Thievery in 5e - still relevant?

Raiztt

Adventurer
Outside of 4e skill challenges, to the best of my knowledge D&D has no resolution system for how long the guards are gone for; whether or not Zenobia has taken a shine to you or the brother of someone you once killed wants to take vengeance on you; whether or not your attempt to trick a guard generates the result you want; whether the guards look behind your poster to notice the escape tunnel you're digging; etc, other than "GM decides".
I mean, I guess you just need to have a good DM? That's not something you can really ensure via procedures.

This is almost certainly an unpopular answer but a lot of these problems, to me, can be rephrased as "what if your DM isn't very good at DMing?" and the answer to that question is either 1.) sucks to suck/too bad for you or 2.) find a different DM.
 

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I mean, I guess you just need to have a good DM? That's not something you can really ensure via procedures.

This is almost certainly an unpopular answer but a lot of these problems, to me, can be rephrased as "what if your DM isn't very good at DMing?" and the answer to that question is either 1.) sucks to suck/too bad for you or 2.) find a different DM.
It’s not a popular answer because it’s not a very good answer. It’s a “throw-up-your-hands-and-say-“Mondays, amirite?” answer.

It ignores that the games’ rules are written, presented and the guidance provided has a huge impact on how many people want to DM and how good they are at it. It’s a running joke on the forum that “the answer is in the DMG” but no one notices because it is so poorly organized.
 

Raiztt

Adventurer
It’s not a popular answer because it’s not a very good answer. It’s a “throw-up-your-hands-and-say-“Mondays, amirite?” answer.

It ignores that the games’ rules are written, presented and the guidance provided has a huge impact on how many people want to DM and how good they are at it. It’s a running joke on the forum that “the answer is in the DMG” but no one notices because it is so poorly organized.
I mean, I fundamentally disagree that you could in principle structure the DMG in such a way, or concoct enough procedures, to ensure that your DM is does their job well.

The structure of the DMG might help or hinder DMs in terms of helping them get better, but no I do not believe there is actually a solution to "My DM isn't very good" for the same reason I do not believe you can teach an uncreative person to be creative.
 
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The Tale of Two Players:

Once in the recent past I had two players meet at my house as my younger 5e players ended their game and left and my older 3.5E players were coming over for their evening game.

Ken: I've known Ken for years and years, and we have been gaming for all that time. Like me he started playing RPGs long, long ago. He bounced around some groups before joining my group, and we will likely game forever. Like me he is an Old School gamer.

Kyle: I've known Kyle for a little over a year now, but not well. He is just an acquaintance that I game with. He is much younger and got his start with RPGs by playing video games. He is now a player in my weekly 5E Spelljammer game. He is a Modern Gamer....though he is starting to crack a bit.

Ken and Kyle have plenty in common...so they go to talking about things, and then came around to talking about D&D. Both of them love to play "Rogue" type characters....in a vague sense. And listing to them talk about their rogue characters was fascinating.

Kyle will endlessly talk about how his 'rogue' is a front line pure combat Striker. He goes on and on about how the right combo of things can do more and more and more damage. He has had some number of characters, but they are all basically the same. Damage is king, and Kyle is ready with his Bucket'o'Dice to roll more and more damage. Kyle lives for combat, and endlessly using "sneak attack" and/or advantage to do more damage. Once in a while Kyle mentions hiding, but only as part of a combat move to.....do more damage. The only personal actions he will menton is his character in combat. Only when asked about anything other then combat, does Kyle mention that, sure, like once a game he sneaks past a guard or something. Often when a published adventure has a set "encounter" that requires stealth as part of the plot. And maybe once a game he remembers to pick a lock.

Ken will talk about each of his fairly distinct characters and how in decades of gaming, he has barley done any combat. In fact, he will tell how not only do his 'rogue' characters avoid combat, but how they run away from it. While his characters can't always avoid combat, it's very rare for Ken to have his character just jump into any combat. Often when getting in combat, Ken's only goal is to escape and get away from the attacker. The few times he feels his character must enter combat, maybe once every three or so game sessions, he often uses things like trip effects or bolas to entangle foes. Much more 'battle field control' then just doing damage". Kan can tell a tale or two of how his character would often move around a combat area doing battle field control. Closing doors, blocking hallways, entangling foes and more. He will take about being a duo with another character and doing such things as tossing a net on some foes so a spellcasting character can blast them. And more so then the above, Ken goes on endlessly about how his 'rogue' character is a thief and an adventurer. stealing anything he could, committing crimes and being a 'gray' type character at best. Though often crossing the line to 'near evil' often enough. And always jumping, climbing, and moving about an area to use all his skills all the time to get things done in the game play.


......
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Then explain me, whose playstyle I am certain you would agree you hate, constantly talks about how talks about how haughty and preening my bard is; how she's managed to con a group of outsiders AND the party into thinking they're ambassadors to that world under the auspices of the local bardic college, or the outsiders she's friends with and plans outings to convince them they're VIPs while quietly disposing of all the letters I'm getting from the college to cease and desist.

I'm a filthy Modern game who is soft and doesn't like boring things, but I'm somehow not an evil 'optimizer' who only talks mechanics and dice.

Might be because Modern gaming is a much bigger tent than we're given credit for and there's nothing wrong with any of it and there's no justification to set 'Kyle' up as an object of ridicule if that's how he has fun.
 

Starfox

Hero
I Believe they said that there will be a magic item price list in the DnD formerly known as 1DD.

I constantly wrestle with the problem I like to call "money as xp". A character has two currencies they can spend to improve themselves; xp for levels (in DnD) or character improvement, and gp for kit. And more expensive kit actually makes you perform as if you were higher level (if not a whole level, at least partway). Some players are very fond of this, as it allows them to customize their character further using items. Some want items to be found only with only minor purchases. And some want no magic items at all. In one game, where we didn't count money at all, money existed in the setting but had no game use. One PC actually rebelled against this and went on a spending spree. For me the real issue would be if I wanted to run a Dicksonian, low-status campaign in a slum setting with little cash around.
 

pemerton

Legend
If they succeed the guards are gone for long enough. I don't understand why the DM interpreting the result of the player rolls into outcomes is a problem. That's what a DM should be doing.
Long enough for what?

As for the bit about "the GM interpreting the result of the player rolls into outcomes" - that isn't how D&D combat works.

I mean, I guess you just need to have a good DM? That's not something you can really ensure via procedures.

This is almost certainly an unpopular answer but a lot of these problems, to me, can be rephrased as "what if your DM isn't very good at DMing?" and the answer to that question is either 1.) sucks to suck/too bad for you or 2.) find a different DM.
This is not how D&D combat or spellcasting works.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I mean, I fundamentally disagree that you could in principle structure the DMG in such a way, or concoct enough procedures, to ensure that your DM is does their job well.
In fairness, you probably could; but the book would end up five times the size it is now and thus even fewer people would read it. :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Might be because Modern gaming is a much bigger tent than we're given credit for and there's nothing wrong with any of it and there's no justification to set 'Kyle' up as an object of ridicule if that's how he has fun.
Kyle isn't to be ridiculed. The poor guy's just using what the game gave him to use when playing a Rogue, hard to blame him for that.

It's what the game gave him that might be worthy of ridicule, from the perspective of an old-school Thief type.
 

Larnievc

Hero
Long enough for what?

As for the bit about "the GM interpreting the result of the player rolls into outcomes" - that isn't how D&D combat works.
Long enough for the party to do whatever shenanigans they are up to.

I never said DM interpretation occurs in combat. Combat in D&D is very structured. Because it needs to be.

But when a PC tries to trick a guard into going out of the room to confirm the orders that the party belong in the jail you don’t need to know how many minutes the guard is away from his post. If the check succeeds the guard is gone for long enough for whatever shenanigans they are planning to do to escape.
 

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