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D&D 5E Thievery in 5e - still relevant?

I think the thief as an archetype is popular in D&D because it is popular in fantasy generally. Fafhard and the Grey Mouser, Shadowspawn from the Thieves World books, Jimmy the Hand from Riftwar saga, even Conan was a thief professionally for much of his life. Thieves overlap with adventurers because they have a highly relevant (and cool!) skill set and are willing to take risks for money, so they seem likely candidates to go into trap-filled dungeons looking for wealth.

Thievery as a way to make gold outside of adventures has never been a thing in my experience. Maybe picking a few pockets for RP purposes but I have never seen anyone play a thief because they thought there would be a financial benefit from being good at stealing.
 

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Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Because by giving a "nod," you're providing the basic chassis that a dedicated player can use to create their own system--either as house rules or as a 3pp. Those who don't care can just ignore the few paragraphs of text and table in the DMG (under downtime activities). Those who do care, but not enough to create a system, can just handwave it and say "OK, the book says it costs 50,000 gp and 400 days to make a keep. You want it fancy? Eh, OK, make it 75,000 gp and it'll take 500 days. Why don't we do a time skip instead of adventuring for a year and a half while it's under construction."

I know that Level Up has a whole system for creating strongholds, but that's math. And most of the time, you don't really need to worry about square footage. Just decide what special areas you want in it and don't worry about the exact square footage--fireballs aren't level-cleaners, after all. Roll a die to find out how many rounds it takes to Dash from room A to room B and you're set. If the exact square footage is really important, make the players draw the floorplan on some graph paper and have them count the squares.

Also, D&D is "all things to all people" and therefore they are making the type of game they want to play.
Wanting to be for everyone (and therefore not doing great at anything) is D&D's biggest problem as far as I'm concerned.
 

5E does treat gold acquisition and expenditure differently than say AD&D. And depending on a person's particular playstyle, that could be seen as a bane or a boon. No one way is better or worse than the other, it all comes down to personal preference on how important wealth is to the game.
I don't find the archetype, as you detail it, to have been particularly strong. While folks like the image of the thief who goes off on their own and does crime, the game has never really supported it well - both in basic tactical terms, and in the meta-consideration of GM attention, it has issues.
I think these allude to what I was going to say.

5e is very much like 2e AD&D -- there are options there to make gold be meaningful, but if the DM or party do not engage with it, it can be rather meaningless. In both cases, it was a reasonable decision -- a significant subset of people didn't have an interest in perpetually running the raid-the-deadly-hole-in-the-ground-for-(non-magical)-loot play cycle (nor necessarily the keep & army use for the gold once you acquired it*), so easier to make the acquiring of gold an optional activity than keep gp=xp front and center. *to say nothing of AD&D level-up training costs, which I think lasted one summer for my main group.

Also very much like 2e, I think Umbran is right -- I think more people included the thief imagery and motif than spent a lot of time doing direct thievery. The Thief class always seemed more like what Backgrounds now cover -- the backstory of what the character used to to do that gave them the skillset that made them a good lockpicker and trap-finder that they now mostly put to use in dungeons. I definitely know that when The Complete Guide to Thieves came out for 2e, everybody lined up to look through the kits and stock up (using their otherwise unspent gold) on dog-pepper and tar-paper and hidden wrist-sheath daggers and boots with hollow heals and all sorts of other fancy equipment designed for civilian burglary and the like and... never quite got around to using them much.

Even in editions where money clearly is important (the xp=gp ones and the WBL-magic-item-purchase ones), generally the money is more often acquired by group adventuring than individual Rogue/Thief thievery capers. The rules have been just too punishing on the one party member out on their own when their hide/move silently check fails, and there's too much in the game world that doesn't care that you can hide well and find physical traps and such (and of course the rest of the players don't want to sit on their thumbs while the 1-2 party Thieves go have a side adventure). Games that thrive on this type of adventure (Blades in the Dark being the fan favorite these days, I believe) tend to work because everyone in the party is a rogue-character and the challenges they face are the kind addressable by a rogue (or occasionally rogue-ghosttalker).

So, yeah, I think 5e is carrying on a long tradition of the game including 'thief' characters who are really more adventurers who once had thief training. Of course, the magic user/mage/wizard characters have long been 'scrawny grey hairs who spend every waking moment studying to acquire power' that don't actually spend much time studying (except re-preparing dungeon-raiding abilities), and gain most of their power raiding dungeons. Of the archetypal classes, only fighters (who certainly do do a lot of fighting) and sometimes cleric/paladins (with varying degrees of system-enforcement) seem to have had much focus on them doing the things they are iconically 'about.'
 


DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Wanting to be for everyone (and therefore not doing great at anything) is D&D's biggest problem as far as I'm concerned.
I think by definition it's almost everyone's biggest problem with 5E. As I said over in the 'What Are The "True Issues" With 5E' thread...

"The True Issue with 5E is that it is not the Dungeons & Dragons game everybody wants."

As has been joked and meme'd before to death, 5E is everyone's '2nd Favorite' version of D&D. It's good enough for almost all people, but it has its tragic flaws that prevent it from being anyone's ideal version. But that's precisely why it's been as successful as it has-- because it's allowed most people to be fairly happy with it, without having to go through all the rigamarole that it would take to produce their ideal version themselves PLUS find a table of other players who are willing to go along with all the goofy crap each of us brings to the table in our idealized version.

There's something to be said with 'Ease-of-Use'. And 5E right now can give most of us a fairly good D&D experience with a minimum of hassle and pain. Sure, we'd like some things different... but there's load-in and buy-in costs that go along with that which sometimes isn't worth the bother.
 

dave2008

Legend
Not primarily perhaps, but its definitely part of the class, because time out of the field is part of the game too, as much as modern D&D seems to want it ignored or relegated to a cut scene.
What's funny is that we only brought downtime into our games with 5e. We didn't have rules for it back in 1e (that we knew of. There may have been rules, but we didn't know them). So from my perspective modern D&D is the first to embrace time out of the field!
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
I think by definition it's almost everyone's biggest problem with 5E. As I said over in the 'What Are The "True Issues" With 5E' thread...

"The True Issue with 5E is that it is not the Dungeons & Dragons game everybody wants."

As has been joked and meme'd before to death, 5E is everyone's '2nd Favorite' version of D&D. It's good enough for almost all people, but it has its tragic flaws that prevent it from being anyone's ideal version. But that's precisely why it's been as successful as it has-- because it's allowed most people to be fairly happy with it, without having to go through all the rigamarole that it would take to produce their ideal version themselves PLUS find a table of other players who are willing to go along with all the goofy crap each of us brings to the table in our idealized version.

There's something to be said with 'Ease-of-Use'. And 5E right now can give most of us a fairly good D&D experience with a minimum of hassle and pain. Sure, we'd like some things different... but there's load-in and buy-in costs that go along with that which sometimes isn't worth the bother.
I still think they've taken ease of use too far, but you're right, I can and do regularly make modifications to 5e to make it more the experience I want.
 



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