Thieves' World d20

[Serendipity]

The Thieves' World Player's Manual is written in the current era of the anthologies, but has enough wriggle room (sorry) to represent the original series.

Sweetness. I had been maintaining a rather sorry state of terror that the book would be set durring the height of the Epic Stepson period (which is pretty much anything from book four onward in the original serries) - not that I dislike that period, but it's by far my least favorite.
Oh, I had thought that the Ilsegi church frowned upon puns. (Puns are dangerous, we wouldn't want to let that Tempust out of the bottle would we?)

 

[rjs]

There are no class defense bonuses, no action points, no fate points, no hit point reserve, no tokens, no little 1" x 2" cards that say "get out of death free" in the Thieves' World Player's Manual.

Certainly once you start "unplugging" things from the game you have to incorporate suitable replacements to return to the same baseline. But TW emphasizes a certain play style; dungeon-delving is not appropriate to TW games. Of all the mechanical changes, I'd say the magic system is the big balancing factor. While spells convert rather than cure, spellcasters aren't limited by slots per day, preparation, and so on. Magic items like wands, staffs, and scrolls become spell enablers, foci augment/increase spellcasting or ritualcasting checks and so on.

The TW PM establishes a baseline for TW games and in my estimation it's the best way to play, but it is by no means the only way to play. In Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary, which is a big GM's guide to running games in Sanctuary, I added several optional tools to change to the tone and threat levels of the TW games, including tips for bringing the magic system closer to the D&D default, casting templates based on techniques, allegiances, playing older and younger characters, action points, class dodge bonus, ideas for running TW Games including multiple GMs and incorporating character trees.

So, even though the play style may not be to everyone's liking (hack-and-slashers beware), I think we made an entertaining game and I hope you give it a look.

 

[PJ-Mason]

You know, i've been waiting a long time for a real TW game effort. When i found out that GR was doing TW, i got really enthused about it. However, the more i see of it...the more that energy is diffused. It looks a lot more like the GR folks crammed TW into D&D than making the D&D rules fit TW. All this talk about the change to healing spells, i am trying to remember when anyone even cast healing magic in Thieves World! The fact that it seems that you are still using pretty much the same magic system and spells...ick (spells causing subdual doesn't really fit. I don't remember too many wizards keeling over from casting spells). I can understand why you stick to classes and levels (can't shock the D&D audience too much!), even if i don't think they fit, but to keep hit points the same way (which it seems you are doing. If i am mistaken, please correct me) with the Massive Damage lowered, still doesn't fit the dangerous, gritty nature of life in Thieves World.

Add to the fact that you are catering to the new futute Sanctuary era, rather than the era that actually made Thieves World what it is...i don't know. Its certaintly no longer the automatic buy that it was when i first heard of the project.

Why the fundemental changes for Black Company (at least for magic for pete's sake) and not for Thieves World? I don't get it. Since when has Green Ronin been timid about radical changes to the D20 system (M&M, Blue Rose, Black Company)?

 

[rjs]

All I can say is that I understand your concerns and I had the same from the outset. Fire and forget magic doesn't fit Thieves' World any better than it did in Black Company, but where Black Company was famous for not have much in the ways of structure, Thieves' World did. The nonlethal damage approach to limiting spellcasting is not out of line at all (I'd recommend revisiting the Janet Morris, Diane Duane, Robin Wayne Bailey stories). Also, to match the anthologies, the magic system was specifically designed to reflect the waning/waxing character of magic in the setting (such as after the Nisibisi power globes were destroyed).

For fans of the classic series, this is the Thieves' World Campaign Setting, which means we covered all 12 books, the novel, and the two new anthologies. You can play your TW games in whatever era you like, whether you want to be fugitive slaves lost in the Gunderpah, looking for a new place to live and inadvertantly founding Sanctuary, or Stepsons fighting the PFLS, or adventurers hunting Dyareelan cultists in a shattered city, the Thieves' World series covers all the bases.

But, you'll see in a few weeks when TW PM hits the shelves. If you're planning on going to Gen Con, please stop by the Green Ronin Booth or come to the Welcome to Thieves' World seminar. I'll be happy to show you in detail how magic works

 

[Crothian]

Are there plans for a PDF release of the PM?

No, PDFs of the TW books was not in the contract

 

[Felon]

Rolemaster Harnmaster Cyberpunk are very deadly systems, but that`s part of the fun of it, the deadliness.

Not the same. In Harn and Cyberpunk, you have systems that don't presume you have magical bonuses. You rely on other defenses. Armor really saves your bacon (heck, it took teflon-coated FN-FAL rounds to scare a properly decked-out solo). And of course, Rolemaster is just sort of a cruel joke GM"s play on their friends.

In D&D, attack bonuses go up, AC does not. It gets easy to hit folks. The arguements that you just don't ever get into fights, don't ever get caught off guard, and print your character sheets on recyclable paper have flaws that are pretty much prima facie IMO.

There are no class defense bonuses, no action points, no fate points, no hit point reserve, no tokens, no little 1" x 2" cards that say "get out of death free" in the Thieves' World Player's Manual.

Hmm. Nice sound bite.

Certainly once you start "unplugging" things from the game you have to incorporate suitable replacements to return to the same baseline. But TW emphasizes a certain play style; dungeon-delving is not appropriate to TW games.

Characters being annihlated left and right, players rolling up new characters after every fight--that's the play style TW emphasizes? It's really intended to be in a league with Hackmaster and Paranoia? I read Thieves' World novels. Sure, the world was deadly, but the fact is, a lot of times characters did have fate points, hit point reserves, or some kind of "get-out-of-death-free" card. Characters did actually survive bad luck, hack-n'-slash aggressiveness, and stupid mistakes. How do you tell a cohesive story when the protagonists die in act two?

In Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary, which is a big GM's guide to running games in Sanctuary, I added several optional tools to change to the tone and threat levels of the TW games, including tips for bringing the magic system closer to the D&D default, casting templates based on techniques, allegiances, playing older and younger characters, action points, class dodge bonus, ideas for running TW Games including multiple GMs and incorporating character trees.

All of that sounds interesting. I will check it out.

So, even though the play style may not be to everyone's liking (hack-and-slashers beware), I think we made an entertaining game and I hope you give it a look.

Definitely. like I've said, I actually prefer a good low-magic, grim-n'-gritty settings. Thanks for taking the time to comment.

 

[Crothian]

Characters being annihlated left and right, players rolling up new characters after every fight--that's the play style TW emphasizes? It's really intended to be in a league with Hackmaster and Paranoia? I read Thieves' World novels. Sure, the world was deadly, but the fact is, a lot of times characters did have fate points, hit point reserves, or some kind of "get-out-of-death-free" card. Characters did actually survive bad luck, hack-n'-slash aggressiveness, and stupid mistakes. How do you tell a cohesive story when the protagonists die in act two?
.

Characters will survive in this game. They won''t be fully healed for a few days but they will survive. Only in the climatic end battle did characters die in the game I p[layed, and since it was a one shot no one really was trying to save their characters so they did some stupid things for effect.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Black Company and Dark Legacies have similiar issues in terms of player survivability. It takes a different mind set to play and survive those games. It's certainly more difficult, but it is still possible.

 

[Nikchick]

Some people seem to be getting the wrong idea about what the Thieves' World line is and isn't. To be crystal clear:

*The series covers all eras, not just the one featured in the current books. While the Player's Manual leans a bit more to the Irrune-era, Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary details the city in both eras and includes write ups and stats for your favorite characters from all the books.

*Thieves' World does not use the standard D&D magic system. The Thieves' World Player's Manual has a new system that was created after many discussions with Lynn Abbey about how magic works in TW. The book features new classes to take advantage of the new rules.

*"Grim and gritty" doesn't mean you die and make up a new character after each combat. It does mean the style of play is different than your typical D&D game but so is Thieves' World.

 

[Morte]

I read Thieves' World novels. Sure, the world was deadly, but the fact is, a lot of times characters did have fate points, hit point reserves, or some kind of "get-out-of-death-free" card. Characters did actually survive bad luck, hack-n'-slash aggressiveness, and stupid mistakes. How do you tell a cohesive story when the protagonists die in act two?

Black Company and Dark Legacies have similiar issues in terms of player survivability. It takes a different mind set to play and survive those games. It's certainly more difficult, but it is still possible.

This reminds me of a lot of people using a gritty/deadly system to try and recreate another series that's low-life but not deadly (because the major/PC characters have script immunity from real harm) -- those who try to use Traveller to play Firefly. I've seen it, and it ain't pretty. They either do something gonzo and die, or they stop playing Firefly and start playing Traveller (in which the cagey survive). They'd be better off with an avowedly cinematic system if they want to play Firefly like it happens on the show.