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Thieves' World Player's Manual

Crothian

First Post
Thieves' World Player's Manual
A Sourcebook for the d20 System
Designed by Lynn Abbey, Gary Astleford, Patrick O'Duffy, and Robert J. Schwalb
Cover by James Ryman
192 pages, hardback

Since 1979 Sanctuary has been the nastiest, ugliest, and grittiest city in fantasy fiction. This summer Sanctuary returns to roleplaying for the first time in over 20 years and the excitement begins with the Thieves' World Player's Manual. This book includes a detailed overview of the city in the classic and current eras, a culture and background system to customize your adventurer, over twenty core and prestige classes, a unique magic system, and a brand new Thieves' World short story by Lynn Abbey herself. Explore the Maze, enjoy the delights of the Street of Red Lanterns, or take part in the fight against Dyareela's cultists. The Thieves' World Player's Manual is your gateway to adventure.
 

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Crothian

First Post
Thieves World Players Manual

[imager]http://www.greenronin.com/images/product/grr1801_200.jpg[/imager]

This has been a long time coming for me. If you want to get to the review and not hear about my life long appreciation of Thieves World, just skip this opening paragraph. It started for me in the mid eighties when I borrowed the first book of short stories from a friend. I was too young to read the novels. Not because they were complex or the vocabulary was too much; it was the issues. Thieves World deals with a lot of dark and dangerous things like rape, drug abuse, murder, and a countless other evils. But that did not stop me from reading the twelve volumes of short stories and then trying to find the full length novels some of the authors choose to do. I was hooked. And then I saw in the back of this gaming store under a stack of magazines a Thieves World box set. I had no idea it was converted to a role playing game and so I got it and played it. I ran Thieves World games for all three editions of D&D, I used Palladium Fantasy, and even a made up system. But the rules were never as important as the city of Sanctuary. Since then my enjoyment of the setting has never ceased. Once I hit college and was able to use the mighty internet I found a board game, modules, and a couple extra copies of the box set. I got the big map and the smaller ones laminated to use at the gaming table. I bought graphic novels of the books to have some great pictures to show players a better idea of what Sanctuary was. But it was d20 that got me vocal about Thieves World once again. With the message boards and the ability for publishers to use the rules for all sort of things the question of “what setting would you like most to see as a d20 setting?” came up. And I started in saying Thieves World and few old timers remembered the old box sets that were twenty years old by then. And for a few years I feared it would never come to be. But then during the magical moment of Gen Con 2004 when Robert Schwalb at the Green Ronin booth personally told me it was coming. I was flabbergasted to say the least. It has been a fun year waiting for the book to come out and now it is out. Green Ronin does a lot of good things with RPGs, but I must admit I have been curious if it will live up to my inflated standards. Thieves World for me is the holy grail of gaming. Now, let us get to the book.

Thieves World Players Manual is a new hardbound book by Green Ronin. The first thing that struck me as I saw the book was the stunning cover art by James Ryman. The picture captures Thieves World very well with things going on in the foreground and background. It is a cover in the tradition of the book covers and is very fitting. The book is written by Lynn Abbey, Gary Astleford, Patrick O’Duffy, and Robert Schwalb. Lynn Abbey is basically the inventor of the Thieves World setting and it really is impressive to see hewr name on a gaming book about Thieves World. It is rare for authors to also be credited with the RPG of their works like this. I interior art is very much like the high quality art Green Ronin uses in their books. It is in black and white with a good lay out. The book is only one hundred and ninety pages and I think it could have been longer. But there are more books for the setting come out so I am hoping they will include a lot more information that I really want.

Now, a fair warning to those people new to the Thieves World setting the city of Sanctuary: it can be dark. There are prostitutes, drugs, slavery, black magic, curses, rape, and other horrors in the books. The RPG acknowledges they are there and has a good small section on it and about making sure the players are comfortable with what you as DM are going to put in the game. It is always good to set some boundaries if that is what people want before going in. It is also possible to have these things in the game without over doing it. As always, know the players and what they like and expect. There is a lot of fun to be had in this setting but the possibilities of offending or disgusting the players and going to far exists.

The book starts with a nice short story from Lynn Abbey and the first chapter is a good over view of everything. It set s the tone for the book and goes into some great information about the government, laws, taxes, economy, money, coins, languages and writing, time climate, and then a good over view of the city. This is all great information but it brings my first complaint. The information is set in the new Sanctuary of the new books and not in the older city I grew up with. But a great job is done and they really have a lot of adventure ideas hidden in the city. There are talks of where the hillers set ambushes, what might be haunting the place Enas Yorl used to call home, Swift Smithy is a good person to talk to about rumors from the palace, and so much more. The climate is covered and each section of the city is described. Each section is almost a miniature city in and of themselves. The processional is very different from the Wharves which are very different from the Tween. And then there is the Maze, possible the most famous of all areas. The Maze has special rules for getting lost as it is so difficult to manage and it changes as the people build and take down buildings. Going into the maze and getting back out is an adventure in itself. It is the most dangerous part of the city and muggings or worse are not uncommon in its narrow alleys and blind corners. The chapter is a good overview and I hope we get a book that really covers the city in full detail of both the time of the modern books and the old books. One great thing the old box set did was have random tables for each distract so a DM could populate the city as they saw fit or just at random.


The second chapter gets more into the mechanics and more into the world of Thieves World. It covers cultures and backgrounds for characters to gave and many of them detail peoples from places far away. Sanctuary is a place that people from all over find themselves in and many cultures mix in the and around the city. It is also important to note here that everyone is human. There are no demi human options in this setting. So the backgrounds serve to really show the many different types of humans. Each culture is given a description, a physical description of the people, the ethnic traits of them, the languages they mostly speak, the classes most common for them, a list of culture feats that the player gets to pick one, a small mechanical bonus that helps set the culture apart from others, and the languages they can start with. There is a quick reference table with most of the mechanical information on it as well as table for heights and weights of people from the many places. Then each character also picks a background. These are like beggar, adventurer, herder, etc. Each has an age modifier (age of character is based on class), each gets a set of skills that are always class skills, and a small trait that is another mechanical and descriptive benefit.

The book does offer new base classes. While a few of the regular base classes can be used, the changes to the rules really get rid of most of them. The Thieves World setting does not use alignments; redoes the magic system, introduces a reputation system, and has a few other small changes. A very nice thing is the book also lists what other classes from Green Ronin class books would be appropriate for the setting. I really like this cross support for their other books.

Prestige classes are where things really get cool for fans of the books. There are a lot of classes in there that from the books I had hoped to see as prestige classes. It is an impressive list of them including Hell Hounds, Blue Star Adept, Crime Lord, Gladiator, Hazard Mage, Irrune Raider, Nisibisi War Witch, S’Danzo Fortune Teller, and many many others. . And like with the base classes, there is a great section for adapting prestige classes to Thieves World. This is something that needs to be addressed for ever d20 setting and I am very pleased to see it for Thieves World. There are lots of classes in other books that would really fit into Thieves World. Some will fit as is, and some of them will really need to be altered. The general guidelines in here should aid in that.

As I have mentioned there are some rule changes. The biggest is the lack of true healing. The game uses hit points but healing spells change lethal damage to non lethal damage. Characters still need to rest to heal that. Also, massive damage is equal to ones constitution score and can be modified by ones armor and feats. In addition to worrying about massive damage, characters can get disfigured, and get infections from wounds. There are great and simple rules for both of these in here. There are the reputation rules that very well done and rules for contacts. Sanctuary is a city wear knowing the right person can easily save your life. The biggest change though is the magic. Magic using characters cast spells differently then in other games. There is no spell preparation. Characters draw in mana from the surrounding area to cast spells. The higher level of the spell the more mana they have to draw in. This can take many, many rounds. So casters have to be careful as that fireball may be coming, but three rounds after they start casting the spell. Also, there are penalties to casting spells and dangers. It is a very cool and involved system. There is a lot of risk for the powerful spells but quite a bit of reward can be generated as well.

I have a lot of good things to say about the book but it is not perfect as no book ever is. The biggest thing missing is a really good map. There is a map of the continent and a map of the city, but neither are full pages and perhaps I am a little spoiled from my big sanctuary map from the old box set, but I want a big map like from the old box set. I also would have liked a section about adventures. It would not need to be a fully fleshed out adventure as that is coming in the soon to be released Murder at the Vulger Unicorn. I would have liked a list or a section of little adventure ideas. There are bits and things in the book, but as always I want more. I also would have liked to see characters from the novels described. They would not have to be fully stated out though that is nice. But a good who’s who of the city would really be useful. Those and the lack of coverage from the old city of Sanctuary are my three biggest complaints about the book.

That is Thieves World in a nutshell. It brings forth the feel of the novels and allows people to form their own story. The most important character in my opinion was always the city. This covers the city and so much more. I have been waiting many years for someone to do a Thieves World RPG again and I am very pleased to not be disappointed.
 

Tharen the Damned

First Post
I have a lot of good things to say about the book but it is not perfect as no book ever is. The biggest thing missing is a really good map. There is a map of the continent and a map of the city, but neither are full pages and perhaps I am a little spoiled from my big sanctuary map from the old box set, but I want a big map like from the old box set. I also would have liked a section about adventures. It would not need to be a fully fleshed out adventure as that is coming in the soon to be released Murder at the Vulger Unicorn. I would have liked a list or a section of little adventure ideas. There are bits and things in the book, but as always I want more. I also would have liked to see characters from the novels described. They would not have to be fully stated out though that is nice. But a good who’s who of the city would really be useful. Those and the lack of coverage from the old city of Sanctuary are my three biggest complaints about the book.

I think this will all be adressed in the second TW source book: Shadospawns´Guide to Sanctuary.
 

rjs

First Post
Indeed. Shadowspawn's Guide to Sanctuary will offer two big maps, one for each era, as well as providing statistics and backgrounds for over 100 NPCs, plus an index listing every character ever to appear in a canonical Thieves' World story. As well, we're including neighborhood descriptions, highlighting key locations, a history of the city, guidelines for running games in Sanctuary and an expansion to the TW PM offering details for playing characters from the Classic Era, including the Bandaran Adept, Kingpin, Freelance, Syrese, Tysian, Azehuran backgrounds and lots more.

Thanks for the great review!
 


BiggusGeekus

That's Latin for "cool"
Man, oh, man this sounds great.

Amusing tidbit: In the first Thieve's World book, the author who created One-Thumb delieberately set things in motion to kill off his own character. He came up with the tavern, The Vulgar Unicorn in hopes that people would interact with One-Thumb. Then, he killed the guy off. The idea was that he knew in any anthology, the best place to be was either first or last. He figured having most people use his character and then having that character dissapear would be a great way to make sure he was last.

If you've read the first anthology, you know it didn't work. He got next-to-last and the last story was a truly amazing one that took a couple of character concepts and knocked them out of the park.

... anyway, just thought I'd share. The book looks neat.
 

Minicol

Adventurer
Supporter
I have just started reading the book, and I really like it so far.
there's just one thing that bogged me : demographics !
they state that there are 2500 inhabitants ? That can't be serious, even after a war ! How do you expect to have a setting big enough to support merchants, a city guard, a city watch and a sizable number of th.. adventurer types I mean in a city that small ?
That may sound silly, but how do you hope to hide from the law if the population is so small that anybody knows your face ? Unless all the lawmen are blind people, and I don't think they are that bad.

I suggest multiplying the numbers by at least ten to be more on the realistic side.

Otherwise ... BUY IT ! It's great.
 

Odhanan

Adventurer
There are RPG books and novels you are not searching for. Books and novels that just manage to escape the webs of your uncanny attention for everything that has to do with fantasy. And then, on a lucky day, you find out and tell yourself "Why didn't I notice this thing before?" For me, Thieves' World embodies this kind of ironic encounter for a fan of role-playing games and fantasy.

I didn't decide to purchase the Thieves' World Player's Manual. It was actually given to me as a Christmas Present. This brings an interesting light to this review: I didn't know there were anthologies featuring authors such as Marion Zimmer Bradley and Philip Jose Farmer. I discovered this all with the Player's Manual. This may answer one vital question for the survival of Thieves' World: was I hooked by TW despite my ignorance? Is this handbook sufficient for me to create a TW character and enjoy the game the DM starts? Let's look at this manual more closely.

grr1801_200.jpg


Overview and Layout

Thieves' World Player's Manual
By Lynn Abbey, Gary Astleford, Patrick O'Duffy, and Robert J. Schwalb
Green ROnin Publishing, #GRR1801
ISBN 1-932442-47-2
192 pages, black and white, hard cover. Cover price: $34.95 US.

The Thieves' World Player's Manual is a beautiful book. Its gorgeous cover instantly appealed to me: dark and sober tones, with an illustration of tavern customers fighting over a stack of gold pieces. For some reason, this illustration puzzled me instantly and took me many years back in time, when I was playing the Dark Eye RPG during the 1980s. I found the Thieves' World logo very attractive as well. All the cover elements invite the reader to open the tome and discover what is so dark about this fantasy world.

The interior layout is sober. All the fonts used are readable and give a clean outlook to the content. The sidebars use some gradually shaded boxes: these are nice, but sometimes the bottom of the boxes becomes a bit dark. It is still pretty readable though.

The book features a table of content, a short story by Lynn Abbey, an Introduction, nine Chapters, two Appendices, a Character Sheet, an Index and the usual OGL License for a d20 product.

This book is intended for use by the players of a Thieves' World (TW) campaign. As such, it presents an overview of the city of Sanctuary and its surroundings, then explains the various options available for Character creation, how a TW campaign may be different from a straight-D&D game, with variant and additional rules, equipment and the like, and details a variant magic system for use in TW campaigns, among other things.

The main questions on my mind for this review are first whether this book presents the Thieves' World well enough to allow players to create meaningful characters for use in TW campaigns, and second whether the rules presented in this book are clear, consistent and usable as they are in a campaign.

The Contents

A Tale of Two Cities - A short story by Lynn Abbey. It reads well and wets the appetite. It features some of the new characters of Thieves' World like Cauvin and Bec. People who are familiar with the setting will like it. Those who aren't familiar with TW, such as I, will like it just as much, I guess. I know I did.

Welcome to Thieves' World - This short introduction presents TW, as well as the books previously written for the setting. This is a nice reference for people not familiar with the setting. It may allow them to search for the different pieces of fiction written by authors as varied as Marion Zimmer Bradley, Jeff Grubb, Philip Jose Farmer and many, many others. Yet, I would have appreciated a short summary of the fictions. This is one thing that I find missing as a newcomer to TW.

Chapter One: A Sanctan Primer - This part of the book presents the city of Sanctuary itself: it's people, its laws, its languages, how time is recorded, the currencies used within the city's walls, the basic climate and geography of the region, as well as an overview of all the different districts of Sanctuary. This is fairly well written and very enlightening to a newcomer to Thieves' World. I found the maps (there are two, one of the region surrounding Sanctuary, and one of Sanctuary itself) too small and not complete: scales, legends are missing. Some locations discussed in the text are not visible on the map (such as Pyrtanis street). This is a shortcoming, but the text sort of makes up for it (I'm sure Shadowbane's Guide to Sanctuary, a supplement to Thieves' World, helps tremendously here, but I think mainly the cross-references of maps and text could have been much better for a player's manual).

Chapter Two: Cultures and Background - This is where the elements of character creation really start. In Sanctuary, everyone is human. There are no elves, no dwarves. "Racial" options from D&D don't exist here. They are replaced by Cultures instead: what human ethnicity you are coming from. I found the panel of choices very wide and inspiring to come up with a character concept. You find here cultures such as the very roman Rankans, the nomadic, horse-riding Raggah, the Half Beysib born from fish-eyed, oceanic folks, the artistic merchants of Caronne, and many others, for a total of 13 different ethnicities described here. Each ethnicity presents some advantages and has a list of cultural feats. One of the feats you select as a 1st level human will have to be one of these cultural feats. Nothing negative to say here: this is all well-done: it increases the flavor of characters without overpowering them. Most of the little advantages to this or that ethnicity are minor bonuses on skills and such. Nothing groundbreaking, but it's nice to have a viable alternative to PHB races.

Then, in the same Chapter, come the Backgrounds. These represent the occupation of your character prior to (and during, if possible) adventuring. Your character could be an entrepreneur, an aristocrat, an academic, a constable, a farmer, an entertainer, and so on. Mechanically, by selecting a background, you will add two skills you choose among eight choices to your class skills. You get a +2 bonus to these two skills and they remain class skills for you, no matter what classes and prestige classes you select later on. Nice.

Chapter Three: Character Classes - Thieves' World uses some of the classes of the PHB as base classes for player characters, such as the Rogue (renamed the Thief), the Fighter and the Barbarian. Some negligible adjustments are made, but this sets a standard of balance for Thieves' World: the new character classes have to reflect the PHB's balance, more or less, or you'll have many players running exclusively Thieves and Fighters instead of more flavorful TW classes. The new classes of TW are, in order: Assassin, Godsworn (agent of a deity in TW, akin to the D&D paladin), Initiate (a kind of spellcasting jack-of-all-trades), Mage (a spellcasting specialist), Noble, Priest (a ritualcasting specialist), Ranger (modified, terrain-based instead of D&D's creature based class), Savant, Survivor and Witch (as good in spellcasting and ritualcasting - see below Chapter Eight for more information on the magic system).

My only complaint here is the Assassin. I find this class a bit bland, and underpowered when compared to the Thief. Sure, with an Assassin, you get a d8 hit die and two good saves, but an Assassin is actually not as good as a Thief when it comes to sneak attacks, has less skill points, doesn't have uncanny dodge and such, but a bunch of poison related abilities (mostly skill and saves bonuses when it involves poison) and killing abilities (which aren't that powerful). Don't get me wrong: this Assassin base class is perfectly playable, but why would an Assassin character not take a majority of Thieves’ levels is beyond me.

Overall, though, most of these character classes seem perfectly playable, and each have a nice flavor that fits more or less with what one would expect in a world of thieves and dreaded wizardry. The Ranger seems to be the class fitting the less, but there is advice on how to manage Rangers in Sanctuary's urban environment. So you're not left wondering.

Then come the prestige classes. Some very good concepts here. The PrCs presented here are, in order: Acolyte of Lizerene, Blue Star Adept, Caronnese Merchant, Cirdonian Caravan Master, Crime Lord, Gladiator, Hazard Mage, Healer of Meshpri, Hell Hound, Irrune Raider, Mistress of Red Lanterns, Mrsevadan Sailor, Nisibisi War Witch, Raggah Horsemaster, Rankan Legionnaire, Sacred Bander, S'danzo Fortuneteller and Spellmaster. Of all these PrCs, I really liked the Crime Lord, the Mistress and the Fortuneteller, mostly because they would be easily usable in a straight D&D campaign. Actually, most PrCs are usable in straight D&D without much rules-tweaking. Obviously the spellcasting PrCs are those you'd have to modify most.

All of these PrCs represent a fine range of options for character development. From warriors to professionals of the street and healers, there's something for nearly everyone at the game table. If you're not satisfied though, there are some guidelines included at the end of the chapter to adapt the PrCs of the DMG and Green Ronin's Advanced Classes from the Master Class series.

Chapter Four: Skills and Feats - In this chapter, all the modifications and additional rules regarding skills and feats are explained. There is a new skill: Gambling, which allows you to play for money against other characters in Sanctan establishments. Some rules about cheating are included (always welcome in a world of thieves...). There are new uses for skills such as Craft (Alchemy, Herbalism, Poison, etc), Diplomacy (Haggling, Bribery), Heal among others.

The new feats are either relevant to the magic system of TW or extension of existing feats from the PHB. Nothing really groundbreaking here either.

Chapter Six: Supplemental Rules - This is a really nice chapter. Some of the topics discussed here concern the modification of the Massive Damage Threshold (which makes the gameplay more dangerous), rules regarding severe injuries and infections, character reputations, contacts in Sanctuary. All this could be added to any d20 campaign quite easily. The rules are not overcomplicated and quite sound. Nice work here.

Chapter Seven: Equipment - This covers such topics as disguised weapons, special materials unique to Thieves' World, tools of alchemy and herbalism, drugs, poisons and magic items. All necessary information to know exactly what kind of goods are available to Sanctan PCs, this adds a level of coherence to the setting.

Chapter Eight: Sorcery - Magic works differently in Thieves' World. Each magic-using class in TW is described with spellcasting bonuses and ritualcasting bonuses. These follow roughly a BAB curve. Basically, Mages are very good as spellcasting, Priests are very good at Ritualcasting, and Witches are medium at both.

All effects can be cast as spells or rituals. A spell is quickly cast, but the caster is limited in the number of effects (PHB spells) he can use this way. Rituals take longer to cast, but allow you to cast above your normal limits (in spell levels or intensity of the effect).

All effects work using Mana Pools. You make a casting check using your base spellcasting or ritualcasting bonus plus relevant ability modifier. If your result is above the "Mana Threshold" (MT) of the spell's level, it is cast. If not, you have to keep concentrating and making casting checks until their sum equals the Mana Threshold. A 0 level spell as a MT of 10. A 1st level spell 20. A 9th level spell 100. There are also rules concerning the way you concentrate, the effects of mana (since it doesn't exist in the same amount in different places of sanctuary), how you might fail casting your effect (including spectacular failures), and so on and so forth.

All in all, the system is well designed and understandable. I have mitigated feeling about it though. Here's why: given that combats in D&D/d20 are usually short (around two rounds for an encounter of four PCs versus a CR equal to the average party level), spells become much less useful since they take forever to cast. Sure, you can sneak up to your enemies and start the combat by a fireball, but casting high level effects in the heat of combat will become usually pointless, unless you prepare some of them (that is, you cast them before hand and do not meet the Mana Threshold of the spell. That way, you can keep the spell ready and release it at the last moment) - but you cannot prepare tons of effects that way.

I see how the magic system fits Thieves' World, and flavor-wise, I find it really inspiring and fresh when compared to the renowned Vancian spellcasting system of D&D. But I am not sure it keeps the magic users balanced when compared to Thieves, Assassins and Fighters flanking, sneak-attacking or multi-attacking their opponents. As a DM, you've got to explain to the players wanting to play magic-users that they will have to plan what they're doing in this game, and that their spells are mostly useful between rather than during fights.

Rules regarding Curses and magic items are also included in this chapter.

Chapter Nine: Spells - This chapter presents the spell lists of the different magic users of Thieves' World, over 20 new domains for Priest characters (including domains such as Ancestors, Artifice, Betrayal, Community, Conquest, Desperation, Disease, Eloquence, etc), as well as new spells for your characters to use.

Appendix I: Gods of Sanctuary - An appendix that will prove useful for Priest characters, this is a listing of different deities represented within Sanctuary's walls, including Ilsigi and Rankan pantheons as well as Independent and Outsider deities.

Appendix II: Character Glossary - A list of prominent characters spanning the different eras of Sanctuary. I imagine it can be quite handy if the DM uses official characters heavily.

The character sheet follows (quite standard if a bit dark), then the Index (well organized and clear using normal and bold fonts), the OGL License and an ad for the next TW supplement: Murder at the Vulgar Unicorn.

Critical Hit

What attracts me the most to Thieves' World is the background. Really, the overview of Sanctuary is a pleasure to read, and the whole book "makes sense", so to speak. I like a book that presents a world of intrigue and murders in the dark alleys of a city without using the stale "grim n'gritty" expression as if that answered all the questions (yes, I'm looking at you Warhammer FRP 2E).

Critical Miss

I think the magic system might prove to be a problem for groups of players fond of a tactical approach to the d20 system. It's a setting made for roleplaying and immersion, and sometimes it sacrifices in terms of game balance to fit the mood of the setting. But there is nothing here that cannot be houseruled one way or another.

Another thing: this is a setting dealing with mature issues such as drug abuse, prostitution, slavery and such. This isn't for the faint of heart. You and your players have to discuss prior to the campaign to know if anyone is rubbed the wrong way by any of these matters. This makes for a better gameplay later on.

Coup de Grace

I am satisfied by this Player's Manual. This is a good resource. After reading the manual, I understand what the Thieves' World is and what it's supposed to represent in terms of fantasy style. I know enough to create a character, but this book doesn't replace the Guide to Sanctuary and even less, I imagine, the upcoming Gazetteer. These seem necessary to be able to run Thieves' World.

This Player Manual is not for everyone. It will appeal to a particular type of gamer: the one interested in character interactions over tactical and mechanical interests in the game; the one who likes intrigues and roleplaying instead of dungeon crawling; the one who likes fantasy settings to be more grim and believable than other, more light-hearted worlds. If you recognize yourself in this gamer, you can buy Thieves' World Player's Manual eyes closed. If you aren't afraid to houserule a few aspects of the game, you will get the most out of it and find your own game balance. If for you rules are the end of all and should be consistent from beginning to end, even if it goes against the setting, chances are you won't find everything at your taste.

All in all, in my opinion, an excellent setting served by honorable game mechanics and a fairly useful player's manual. Four Stars.
 

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