Things that Irk Me about DnD (Somewhat long, kinda ranty)

[schnee]

Well, as a practicing Occultist and follower of Crowley I can tell you that magick is a heck of a lot more than studying ancient tomes and performance of ritual.

I know I didn't give the full picture, but I was trying to show how it was in history in a context related to D&D mages. No offense intended.

 

[schnee]

I feel like posting again.

If the cleric is a crusading knight dedicated to protecting the righteous, what's a paladin?

Here's how I see it.

Paladins are holy warriors that also do miraculous things.
Clerics are miracle workers that also wage holy war.

Yes, Clerics are limited and don't take into account all possible types of priests, but we're talking about a class that has to fulfill a specific role in a party of different, yet balanced, archetypes, in a combat-heavy game. Other systems have more interesting, varied types of spellcasters, but then again, those games have different focus. It's the same way a 'spelunker' class, with all sorts of dungeoneering, exploration and survival skills isn't really used either. Useful stuff, and characters like that sure do exist in the world, but that role is partially filled by a class that has other neat combat skills (i.e. Rogue).

 

[LostSoul]

While in combat, you usually use a lot of combat magic, well while using that magic etc. you gain insight into your capabilities and how to channel the energies of your faith to better advantage and then you can apply them to situations outside of combat for those spells not used while fighting. It all feeds into itself.

Are you saying that there is something inherent about combat that makes casting spells then, rather than while in quiet meditation, gives one a better insight into one's capabilities?

If so, how do you rationalize this? To put that another way, what's your Fluff text?

 

[dead]

Hmmm...are you being intolerant of the intolerant?

You're damn right!

Nobody's gonna tell me what the *only* truth is; or *save* me from everything I care about.

 

[Count Arioch the 28t]

Is Psionic a "magic" in your game, or is it classed as non-magical?

Can the Psionic-users manifest healing powers?

It's considered magic.

And I wasn't aware that they couldn't manifest healing powers. (See Body Adjustment, empathic transfer, et al.) Or are you asking if I house ruled it away? (I didn't. if that's what you were asking.)

The way I treat the three-fold magic system:

Arcane magic is simply my world's science. Things happen for a reason, and although they don't know entirely why magic works, what is know can be easily classified and studied. Although their methods of learning might vary wildly, a bard could converse witha wizard meaningfully about magic, or a sorceror with a wu jen, as they are similiar in their approach to learning magic. (Think Harry Potter. I think that there's a mix of wizards and sorcerors in Hogwarts, judging from the books. Also in my world, sorcerors still have magic from birth, but they still need to be educated on how to properly focus the energies, that's why some people don't become actual sorcerors until later in life, because they simply never received education.)

Divine magic is power that you draw from another more powerful source outside yourself. Clerics draw magic from Gods, Druids draw power from Nature, Shugenja draw magic from the elemental planes, etc.

Psionic magic is power you draw from within.

As for the three getting along, psionic and arcane practicioners see each other as friendly rivals, but tend to be respectful. Arcane magic users tend to get along with the divine ones, but the Psionic users tend to view divine casters as weaklings that rely on some supernbatural "big brother" to carry them.

Oh, and I'm tolerant of the intolerant. Yes, there are bigotted jerkholes in America. And the first amendment protects them too.

 

[2d6]

You're damn right!

Nobody's gonna tell me what the *only* truth is; or *save* me from everything I care about.

Aren't comments like these why we don't talk about religion on the boards?


On Topic

I've never had a problem with the Divine/Arcane seperation in D&D. I think they work fine within the context of the D&D game.

Obviously they may not work with every sort of fantasy theme, but I agree with a couple of the other posters when they said that D&D wasn't ment too. D&D has its own kind of thing going on and I like that for what it is.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

Two words for you... PLAY MIDNIGHT

I will address each of your two gripes and point out why the Midnight setting is superior.

Gripe 1 - Arcane/Divine Divide. The only arcane class is the Channeller and there is no Arcane/Divine divide between them.

Gripe 2 - Clerics. The only Clerics in the setting are the servants of the only god in the setting which is a dark and evil "demigod" (imagine Sauron if he had gotten the ring back). In your typical D&D type of game this would make Legates (the evil god's clerics) an unplayable class as they are uniformly evil.

The only standard classes that are even allowable in the setting are the Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue... everything else is changed.

Check it out... you might like it.

 

[DragonLancer]

A cleric isn't a priest. It's as simple as that. A fighter's not a bodyguard and a bard's not a musician.

The fighter class encompasses a lot of different areas, and bards can be many things beside musicians. Bards can be lorekeepers, storytellers and so on…

But the cleric pure and simple represents a priest of the gods. The D&D game doesn’t allude to anything else, except perhaps tribal shaman and that could fall under druid or sorcerer better. Now, in the worlds of D&D I can’t see clerics not having some martial training, as they live in a world where monsters exist, and the intervention of deities is a tangible thing.

I tell you what's even funnier, though; when you find gods of "magic". Or gods of "arcane magic".

What do with the clerics of these gods? Do you have to go to the extreme of making them cleric/wizards or give them a prestidge class like the Hollowed Mage (BoHM) or Dweomercrafter (Complete Divine web enhancement)?

Should these clerics be getting the entire arcane list as divine spells?

Actually, I did this back in the 2nd ed days. I ran a Dragonlance game just after 2nd edition game out, where we had a cleric of Solinari (god of Good magic), and I decided that the cleric could access arcane spells rather than divine. Although that worked fine then, I wouldn’t recommend it under 3.X as that would make the character unbalanced.

At the end of the day, there’s two options that I can see… Either (as DragonLance takes the issue in 3.5) wizards are essentially the priests of the gods of magic, or you just the priesthood of said gods be assistants and fellow scholars of mages. I’m sure others will be able to think other options but those two are the first that come to mind.

You really think so?? I've heard the opposite complaint far more frequently: that druids are now *over*powered, especially when they're shape-shifting into dire bears five times a day, etc.

Was this post done with 2E knowledge? Or are you simply blind? Druids kick the party's ass by themselves whenever they feel like it. If you define Underpowered as "Not having Godlike power", then, well, never mind, because then druids STILL aren't underpowered.

What in the nine hells do you mean by druids being underpowered? 'Cause I'm stumped. Is it the lack of time travelling monkeys or something?

I’ve had players in my group who like playing druids, and have done so since 2nd edition. I myself have yet to play one, but the comments that my players have said (and I’ve heard numerous posts agreeing with this view on various message boards) is that they just don’t hold up to other classes.

In my last campaign, we had a druid played from beginning (1st) through to the end (18th), and no one was much impressed by the class. Even with shape-shifting it didn’t stand up that well in combats, and the spell lists need a few more useful spells at higher level.

And there isn’t a class that couldn’t do with the addition of time-travelling monkeys…

 

[Vindicator]

You're damn right!

Nobody's gonna tell me what the *only* truth is; or *save* me from everything I care about.

Hmmm...but if you are intolerant of the intolerant, then you yourself are intolerant, and should expect people to be intolerant of you...

One of the many paradoxes of political correctness, I guess.

 

[Staffan]

Actually, EGG was quite fond of this type of magic system because, when he released his second Fantasy RRP, Dangerous Journeys, *I think* there was a similar system in place. It had Dweomercraft (arcane) and Priestcraft (divine).

I'm not 100% sure on this, though.

Right. Though there were also subdivisions (I know Dweomercræft had Black, White, Green, Grey and Elemental magic - I'm not sure what the Priestcræft skill had, since I was playing a Dweomercræfter) and a metric crapload of other magic skills - most of whom were more related to the Spiritual side than the Mental side (Witchcræft, Apotropaism, Hekaforging, Spellsongs, and others). Priest- and Dweomercræft were the biggest types though, and the only ones who had what was called "Full practicioners" (basically, you had a small random chance of getting 10x the magic points from your main skill, and got to cast all your spells as one difficulty easier). Other spellcasters could take Vows (for good types - weaker, but don't require things like sacrificing babies every full moon) or Pacts (for evil types - stronger, but... well) to increase their power, but those were linked to behavioral constraints, wheras Full Practicioners just were more powerful.