Things that just bother me when it comes to D&D.

[Sunseeker]

In a world where the level of the lawbreakers are more similar to the power level of guards? No.

In a world where one or two guards can easily crush PCs? Yes.

...unless the lawbreakers are of a similar power to that of the guards. In such a case that everyone in town is stronger than the PCs, are the goblins really a viable threat?


That explanation works in a world where it makes sense. In D&D, it really doesn't because of the way levels work.

I think that depends on how you think about levels. Why are commoners, farmers, nobles, etc... all completely suck? Why are only the players the exception?

When I make worlds and populate them, Everything up to about level 10 is pretty common. 11-20 pairs down the commonness pretty quickly. I like to think of levels as more an exponential curve rather than a linear progression of rarity.

 

[Argyle King]

I think that depends on how you think about levels. Why are commoners, farmers, nobles, etc... all completely suck? Why are only the players the exception?

When I make worlds and populate them, Everything up to about level 10 is pretty common. 11-20 pairs down the commonness pretty quickly. I like to think of levels as more an exponential curve rather than a linear progression of rarity.

To be fair, if I start thinking about it, that bothers me too.

Even considering that the PCs are above average, it still seems odd to me that virtually no amount of commoners can hope to have a chance against a level 10 fighter. At some point, I feel numbers (as in amount of people) should still matter, and D&D tends to feel that point is much further away than where I'd like it to be.

Like I said, I try not to think about it. If I put thought into it, a lot of the game starts to unravel for me.

 

[Cleon]

I think that depends on how you think about levels. Why are commoners, farmers, nobles, etc... all completely suck? Why are only the players the exception?

When I make worlds and populate them, Everything up to about level 10 is pretty common. 11-20 pairs down the commonness pretty quickly. I like to think of levels as more an exponential curve rather than a linear progression of rarity.

In my homebrew campaign I have the vast bulk of the population be 1st to 5th level, most "leaders and shakers" be 6th to 10th level (e.g. mercenary captains, provincial governors, "the witch of the slums", and so forth) and 10th+ level characters are figures of legendary renown - "the greatest warrior of the provinces" or "the wizard-king of the city of wizards" types.

Recent D&D level progression is just too fast for my tastes. I like being 9th level to be significant, and not a step a PC sits on for half an adventure before becoming "really awesome".

 

[Li Shenron]

As for the divine/arcane magic split I like it I enjoy the fact that magic comes from different areas. Though I always wondered what would happen if you got rid of it and just said pick your spells from the entire list.

You should try a campaign set in Rokugan There is only one spellcaster class (the Shugenja) which in a sense is a mix of everything... there are traces of cleric, druid, wizard, shaman and sorcerer in the class, because all magic (except Maho which is evil magic) in the setting is inspired by Shinto religion, is about communing with spirits, has a strong elemental flavor, and Shugenjas are both priests and sages but born with innate gifts (and cast spontaneously).

 

[Herobizkit]

Gods are like lions, or dinosaurs.

Or lionsaurs, which are now a thing, thanks to you.

 

[S'mon]

Recent D&D level progression is just too fast for my tastes. I like being 9th level to be significant, and not a step a PC sits on for half an adventure before becoming "really awesome".

I found that a big problem in 3e (until I switched to 1/2 XP and cap at 10th) but in 4e they made the power gradient much more shallow; 9th in 4e is like 5th in 3e, and 9th in 3e is like 18th in 4e. So the levels mean something different.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think that depends on how you think about levels. Why are commoners, farmers, nobles, etc... all completely suck? Why are only the players the exception?

It's for this reason that I've never thought about levels as actual "power". Levels to me mean only one thing-- Plot Connectedness.

The more connected to the Story you are... the more "power" (via game mechanics) you get by going up in level. PCs are the baseline examples of this, which is why they go up in level and thus seemingly become "more powerful" (via new and different game mechanics) because they get more and more connected to the Story. And any monsters and NPCs the PCs have to face as part of the Story also have more "plot connectedness", and thus are higher in level too. But that doesn't mean they are actually more powerful than another monster or NPC when you take away the game mechanics used to allow PCs to interact with them.

A random Town Guardsman that the PCs just walk past as they enter a town might only be Level 1, because there's no plot connection between the PCs and that guard. The guard doesn't need to have more, interesting, or diverse game mechanics connected to him, because the interaction between the guard and the PC will be virtually nil. And if by some chance there *is* an interaction... the PCs can knock the dude out with one punch because he's so low-level. He's not a part of the Story, their interaction is virtually meaningless, and thus he doesn't need more game mechanics than just what he gets for being Level 1. Whereas, the Town Guardsman who has kidnapped the Mayor's daughter (and whom the Mayor has sent the PCs on to find) gets bumped up to Level 7 so that the Story between the guard and the PC can actually be interesting once the game mechanics get introduced.

But in terms of actual, literal, ability, skill and power of those two guardsmen (if you look at it from a top-down perspective)? They are most likely pretty on par with each other. They both have about the same training, they both have probably around the same amount of experience being a guard, they both have not done enough to get a better job elsewhere. They are both regular dudes with a job to do. But, because one guy interacts with the Story and the other guy doesn't... once guy is Level 7 while the other is Level 1.

For me, any other attempt to think of Levels as actual ability, power and skill is a futile exercise (in whatever edition or game you play) because invariably a higher level character has more and higher game mechanics at his disposal and thus ALL things he can do are extended way further than the lower level guy-- even things that have nothing to do with what they are actually trained to do.

When your Level 15 NPC is better dancer than your Level 1 NPC who is actually a trained dancer in the fiction simply because that's how the game mechanics shake the numbers out for these two NPCs... that tells you right there that Level doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of actual top-down ability.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

It's for this reason that I've never thought about levels as actual "power". Levels to me mean only one thing-- Plot Connectedness.

The more connected to the Story you are... the more "power" (via game mechanics) you get by going up in level. PCs are the baseline examples of this, which is why they go up in level and thus seemingly become "more powerful" (via new and different game mechanics) because they get more and more connected to the Story. And any monsters and NPCs the PCs have to face as part of the Story also have more "plot connectedness", and thus are higher in level too. But that doesn't mean they are actually more powerful than another monster or NPC when you take away the game mechanics used to allow PCs to interact with them.

A random Town Guardsman that the PCs just walk past as they enter a town might only be Level 1, because there's no plot connection between the PCs and that guard. The guard doesn't need to have more, interesting, or diverse game mechanics connected to him, because the interaction between the guard and the PC will be virtually nil. And if by some chance there *is* an interaction... the PCs can knock the dude out with one punch because he's so low-level. He's not a part of the Story, their interaction is virtually meaningless, and thus he doesn't need more game mechanics than just what he gets for being Level 1. Whereas, the Town Guardsman who has kidnapped the Mayor's daughter (and whom the Mayor has sent the PCs on to find) gets bumped up to Level 7 so that the Story between the guard and the PC can actually be interesting once the game mechanics get introduced.

But in terms of actual, literal, ability, skill and power of those two guardsmen (if you look at it from a top-down perspective)? They are most likely pretty on par with each other. They both have about the same training, they both have probably around the same amount of experience being a guard, they both have not done enough to get a better job elsewhere. They are both regular dudes with a job to do. But, because one guy interacts with the Story and the other guy doesn't... once guy is Level 7 while the other is Level 1.

For me, any other attempt to think of Levels as actual ability, power and skill is a futile exercise (in whatever edition or game you play) because invariably a higher level character has more and higher game mechanics at his disposal and thus ALL things he can do are extended way further than the lower level guy-- even things that have nothing to do with what they are actually trained to do.

When your Level 15 NPC is better dancer than your Level 1 NPC who is actually a trained dancer in the fiction simply because that's how the game mechanics shake the numbers out for these two NPCs... that tells you right there that Level doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of actual top-down ability.

The "dancer" example would only show up in 4th edition because of the half level mechanic. A 15th level NPC who invest skill points in dancing is still going to suck at it if they don't roll high.

 

[Argyle King]

It's for this reason that I've never thought about levels as actual "power". Levels to me mean only one thing-- Plot Connectedness.

The more connected to the Story you are... the more "power" (via game mechanics) you get by going up in level. PCs are the baseline examples of this, which is why they go up in level and thus seemingly become "more powerful" (via new and different game mechanics) because they get more and more connected to the Story. And any monsters and NPCs the PCs have to face as part of the Story also have more "plot connectedness", and thus are higher in level too. But that doesn't mean they are actually more powerful than another monster or NPC when you take away the game mechanics used to allow PCs to interact with them.

A random Town Guardsman that the PCs just walk past as they enter a town might only be Level 1, because there's no plot connection between the PCs and that guard. The guard doesn't need to have more, interesting, or diverse game mechanics connected to him, because the interaction between the guard and the PC will be virtually nil. And if by some chance there *is* an interaction... the PCs can knock the dude out with one punch because he's so low-level. He's not a part of the Story, their interaction is virtually meaningless, and thus he doesn't need more game mechanics than just what he gets for being Level 1. Whereas, the Town Guardsman who has kidnapped the Mayor's daughter (and whom the Mayor has sent the PCs on to find) gets bumped up to Level 7 so that the Story between the guard and the PC can actually be interesting once the game mechanics get introduced.

But in terms of actual, literal, ability, skill and power of those two guardsmen (if you look at it from a top-down perspective)? They are most likely pretty on par with each other. They both have about the same training, they both have probably around the same amount of experience being a guard, they both have not done enough to get a better job elsewhere. They are both regular dudes with a job to do. But, because one guy interacts with the Story and the other guy doesn't... once guy is Level 7 while the other is Level 1.

For me, any other attempt to think of Levels as actual ability, power and skill is a futile exercise (in whatever edition or game you play) because invariably a higher level character has more and higher game mechanics at his disposal and thus ALL things he can do are extended way further than the lower level guy-- even things that have nothing to do with what they are actually trained to do.

When your Level 15 NPC is better dancer than your Level 1 NPC who is actually a trained dancer in the fiction simply because that's how the game mechanics shake the numbers out for these two NPCs... that tells you right there that Level doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of actual top-down ability.

Which is a nice way to look at it, but it still poses problems. For example, in 3rd Edition, taking the Leadership feat gave me followers. With a good enough charisma, I'd have an army. However, the realization quickly sets in that virtually no amount of those followers will make any difference in problems you'd have as a higher level character.

Also, that point of view seems to assume a linear story to some extent. ...or, well, a preset story. In a game where neither is the case, it is my opinion that it fits less.

 

[Elf Witch]

You should try a campaign set in Rokugan There is only one spellcaster class (the Shugenja) which in a sense is a mix of everything... there are traces of cleric, druid, wizard, shaman and sorcerer in the class, because all magic (except Maho which is evil magic) in the setting is inspired by Shinto religion, is about communing with spirits, has a strong elemental flavor, and Shugenjas are both priests and sages but born with innate gifts (and cast spontaneously).

I enjoy Rokugan and use a lot of things from it in my game. I want to try the taking out the divine arcane magic divide in D20 and see how it plays. I had success making all skill class skills. The doomsayers were wrong the rogue didn't get hosed everybody did not take spot. It opened up customization of the PCs especially for the fighter times.

How I handle city guard and nobles and other NPCs is I make them the level I need for the story. I view level as a mechanic to allow PCs new abilities. Like hit points it is really artificial and gamiest so I don't let it tie my hands story wise.

As for a reason why the king sends PCs out to do the dirty work instead of the city guard or army that is really easy. The PCs are expendable usually if they die the king does not owe a death debt to family also why would he risk his city guards they are better trained at keeping order and are known by the people and him. As for the army they are fine for war but when you need a small group who better than a small group of adventurers.