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Thinking About the Purpose of Mechanics from a Neo-Trad Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="Emberashh" data-source="post: 9214927" data-attributes="member: 7040941"><p>I didn't say you have an animosity towards improv. I said you clearly don't like the implication of improv being related to improv theater. (Which you clearly don't like)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Thats very much like saying stir-frying is appropriating from deep frying. </p><p></p><p>And more to the point, it glosses over what you're implying by saying this: that you don't think roleplaying is a form of improv. Its okay to think that, but you'll have to do more to prove that assertion. I've already elaborated at length at why I see them as the same fundamental activity, and given multiple examples.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This to me comes off as though you just don't want to entertain that the problems I point to might actually exist, but rather than try to challenge those thoughts directly (ie, making an argument that they aren't problems), you've decided to just reject the conversation. </p><p></p><p>You may not like the turn in my attitude, but I've enjoyed talking to you up to this point because you were actually <em>talking</em> to me, and now you're increasingly not doing so despite continuing to reply. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a big difference, actually, in gameplay. The same mechanisms are leveraged for very different experiences, and thats evident in the many different forms of improv, all the way up to roleplaying as its most complex form. </p><p></p><p>And it should be noted you continue to betray the idea that you're merely "neutral" to improv theater when you're making a logical leap from "these activities run off the same mechanisms" to "these activities are the same thing". </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't consider that list to be comprehensive given the books focus on video games with a mostly tertiary consideration of tabletop games and virtually no consideration of any other game medium. Its one of those things I take with a grain of salt, in other words. </p><p></p><p>Improv mechanisms don't govern how players interact with each other. They govern how a scene or reality is managed; that this comes primarily through actual social interaction is entirely incidental. </p><p></p><p>Social Interaction mechanics as Adams uses it however refers to the capability to engage in social interaction in a video game, not how its done. </p><p></p><p>What we colloquially know as social interaction doesn't fall under either category, as social interaction isn't a game mechanic. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Analysis is critical for theory, of any kind. Its integral to how theory is applied, and moreover, getting better at whatever it is we're doing, whether thats writing poetry, designing a bridge, or designing a game. If you can't or won't analyze both your own work and that of others, you're doomed to mediocrity. </p><p></p><p>I've directly analyzed nearly 200 something TTRPGs at this point, and I've played about half of them enough to contextualize that analysis with actual gameplay. When I say that I'm observing a pervasive issue in TTRPG design thats going completely unanswered, thats not some veil I'm throwing over my dislike for certain games, its an observation from extensive and exhaustive experience, and given that doing this has near completely soured me towards the entire hobby, I don't feel particularly squeamish about sharing that analysis and passing judgement. </p><p></p><p>Most of these games weren't actually fun in what they actually put in the books, and what was fun is just the thing all of them implicitly make a part of the experience but never put a name to, all too often because of the same pervasive attitude that its "icky". You can guess what that is. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's very much like saying there is no hole in the ship if we just close the door to that compartment and ignore it. </p><p></p><p>It also seems your positioning yourself in a perspective that seeks to model what current TTRPGs are, and despite my consistent arguments and evidence that points to the improv game being a part of nearly all of them, you'd rather reject it because you're not comfortable with the implications of certain words. These are contradictory behaviors. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But it doesn't mean rejecting the dialogue either. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Case in point. I believe this is the second time you've inappropriately conflated the activity (improv theater) with its underlying mechanisms (the improv game), in complete rejection of the many times repeated argument that positions roleplaying as a separate activity from improv theater, with the improv game as the mechanistic foundation that leads to both. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is all just talking at me, essentially. You're completely glossing over the points I've been making and missing why I'm even making them at all.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Emberashh, post: 9214927, member: 7040941"] I didn't say you have an animosity towards improv. I said you clearly don't like the implication of improv being related to improv theater. (Which you clearly don't like) Thats very much like saying stir-frying is appropriating from deep frying. And more to the point, it glosses over what you're implying by saying this: that you don't think roleplaying is a form of improv. Its okay to think that, but you'll have to do more to prove that assertion. I've already elaborated at length at why I see them as the same fundamental activity, and given multiple examples. This to me comes off as though you just don't want to entertain that the problems I point to might actually exist, but rather than try to challenge those thoughts directly (ie, making an argument that they aren't problems), you've decided to just reject the conversation. You may not like the turn in my attitude, but I've enjoyed talking to you up to this point because you were actually [I]talking[/I] to me, and now you're increasingly not doing so despite continuing to reply. There's a big difference, actually, in gameplay. The same mechanisms are leveraged for very different experiences, and thats evident in the many different forms of improv, all the way up to roleplaying as its most complex form. And it should be noted you continue to betray the idea that you're merely "neutral" to improv theater when you're making a logical leap from "these activities run off the same mechanisms" to "these activities are the same thing". I don't consider that list to be comprehensive given the books focus on video games with a mostly tertiary consideration of tabletop games and virtually no consideration of any other game medium. Its one of those things I take with a grain of salt, in other words. Improv mechanisms don't govern how players interact with each other. They govern how a scene or reality is managed; that this comes primarily through actual social interaction is entirely incidental. Social Interaction mechanics as Adams uses it however refers to the capability to engage in social interaction in a video game, not how its done. What we colloquially know as social interaction doesn't fall under either category, as social interaction isn't a game mechanic. Analysis is critical for theory, of any kind. Its integral to how theory is applied, and moreover, getting better at whatever it is we're doing, whether thats writing poetry, designing a bridge, or designing a game. If you can't or won't analyze both your own work and that of others, you're doomed to mediocrity. I've directly analyzed nearly 200 something TTRPGs at this point, and I've played about half of them enough to contextualize that analysis with actual gameplay. When I say that I'm observing a pervasive issue in TTRPG design thats going completely unanswered, thats not some veil I'm throwing over my dislike for certain games, its an observation from extensive and exhaustive experience, and given that doing this has near completely soured me towards the entire hobby, I don't feel particularly squeamish about sharing that analysis and passing judgement. Most of these games weren't actually fun in what they actually put in the books, and what was fun is just the thing all of them implicitly make a part of the experience but never put a name to, all too often because of the same pervasive attitude that its "icky". You can guess what that is. That's very much like saying there is no hole in the ship if we just close the door to that compartment and ignore it. It also seems your positioning yourself in a perspective that seeks to model what current TTRPGs are, and despite my consistent arguments and evidence that points to the improv game being a part of nearly all of them, you'd rather reject it because you're not comfortable with the implications of certain words. These are contradictory behaviors. But it doesn't mean rejecting the dialogue either. Case in point. I believe this is the second time you've inappropriately conflated the activity (improv theater) with its underlying mechanisms (the improv game), in complete rejection of the many times repeated argument that positions roleplaying as a separate activity from improv theater, with the improv game as the mechanistic foundation that leads to both. This is all just talking at me, essentially. You're completely glossing over the points I've been making and missing why I'm even making them at all. [/QUOTE]
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