D&D 5E Thirteen observations about Xanathar’s Guide

[Erechel]

10. Ceremony spell (XG 151): Ugh. I hated the UA version of this, and it’s still bad:

a. Atonement: how can one be willing about alignment change? Alignment isn’t fixed unless it’s a magical effect, and there are no restrictions on classes and alignment. If it’s to counteract a magical effect, the player may be willing, but the character by definition isn’t. Unless this is now the only way that a character can change alignment, in which case we can convert savages and CE goblins can be made NG. In which case it’s awesome.

b. Coming of Age and Dedication can only give their benefits to a creature once (ever). Who wants to track this nonsense? Do high-level characters save this until just before they bight the Ancient Red Dragon, and suddenly decide to get confirmed before the fight?

c. Wedding. That is, unless they get married to each other. In a world with Raise Dead spells, the “to death do us part” nonsense implicit in the now-undefined term of “widowed” (in addition to being completely out of step with the 20th century, let alone the 21st) suggests that divorces typically involve fights to the death, so that characters are free to re-marry. And the benefit is to help Armor Class? Yep, that’s why I got married. So my wife and I could do better on the tag-team gladiator pits for the first half of our honeymoon.

I couldn't agree less if I had to. Ceremony is perhaps my favourite Clerical spell in the entire game, if not just the best spell, period. Just because it mades sense for a cleric to bestow a bless over significative moments in people's lives. Coming of Age is a really easy one to adjudicate: you become an adult, then you are blessed for a day. I could easily see it used in a character's 18 birthday. Also, religious marriage is at odds with divorce, and thematically mades sense because "until death do us part". Obviously, this is a measure to prevent abuse (it is a fairly powerful buff that doesn't require concentration, and it's a first level spell). Atonement could be big, specially for paladins, and even mades sense as a confession type rite: you don't forgive a sin (IE, cast this spell), unless the character atones in some way. Overall, Ceremony is a catholic-type spell, and mades sense as it is basically what a priest does, instead of firing lasers from the hands (Guiding Bolt, Sacred Flame).

 

[Chaosmancer]

I couldn't agree less if I had to. Ceremony is perhaps my favourite Clerical spell in the entire game, if not just the best spell, period. Just because it mades sense for a cleric to bestow a bless over significative moments in people's lives. Coming of Age is a really easy one to adjudicate: you become an adult, then you are blessed for a day. I could easily see it used in a character's 18 birthday. Also, religious marriage is at odds with divorce, and thematically mades sense because "until death do us part". Obviously, this is a measure to prevent abuse (it is a fairly powerful buff that doesn't require concentration, and it's a first level spell). Atonement could be big, specially for paladins, and even mades sense as a confession type rite: you don't forgive a sin (IE, cast this spell), unless the character atones in some way. Overall, Ceremony is a catholic-type spell, and mades sense as it is basically what a priest does, instead of firing lasers from the hands (Guiding Bolt, Sacred Flame).

See, I love the Ceremony spell as a DM, not because of the effects that exist within the spell but because of the design space the spell opened up for me.

For me, and thru homebrew, the immediate question was "What kind of effects happen at higher levels?" What would I allow a War Cleric of Kord do with a 5th level ceremony involving the battle standard of the army on the eve of war? What kind of story happens if an evil cleric of Loki uses a 6th level slot to marry the Prince and Princess in the name of Thor?

These sort of things could totally have happened without the spell, but the spell was the catalyst that allowed me to consider all of this, and so I love this spell.

And I need to either give it to druids or come up with a different version for them, because I want to be fair to both groups.

 

[Kobold Stew]

I couldn't agree less if I had to. Ceremony is perhaps my favourite Clerical spell in the entire game, if not just the best spell, period. Just because it mades sense for a cleric to bestow a bless over significative moments in people's lives.

I want to agree with you here. Cleric is my favourite 5e class, and I agree that if one were designing the class from the start, Ceremony should be there. Not this Ceremony, of course, but the ability to perform basic religious rites for believers.

Unfortunately, that design space has been used already.

First, Acolytes (the background) have the ability for basic religious ceremonies. This spell takes that away.
Second, the mechanical implementation is clumsy, with the day-long or week-long benefits that one can benefit from once.
Third, the benefits given are completely divorced from the type of ceremony it is.

All of these could have been solved if a different version of Ceremony were the "default" cantrip for Clerics, instead of Thaumaturgy. Instead, they focused on doors opening mysteriously.

A cantrip establishes it is something the Cleric habitually does. That would require re-writing Acolyte, which most people would be fine with. It wouldn't give exploitable benefits that would need to be curbed with silly arbitrary limits. And with better design the benefits might actually be tied to the ceremony itself, rather than be an AC or saving throw bonus.

Or, if not a cantrip, a basic Cleric ability given at first level. Also excellent. Or Acolyte could have been better worded than it was. All sorts of good solutions available.

See, I love the Ceremony spell as a DM, not because of the effects that exist within the spell but because of the design space the spell opened up for me.

For me, and thru homebrew, the immediate question was "What kind of effects happen at higher levels?" What would I allow a War Cleric of Kord do with a 5th level ceremony involving the battle standard of the army on the eve of war? What kind of story happens if an evil cleric of Loki uses a 6th level slot to marry the Prince and Princess in the name of Thor?

These sort of things could totally have happened without the spell, but the spell was the catalyst that allowed me to consider all of this, and so I love this spell.

And I need to either give it to druids or come up with a different version for them, because I want to be fair to both groups.

This is great -- you are taking a bad spell and looking for ways to make it good. The fact that it fired your creativity in new ways, though, doesn't make the spell itself good.

Believe me, I appreciate you both trying to find good here.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

All of these could have been solved if a different version of Ceremony were the "default" cantrip for Clerics, instead of Thaumaturgy. Instead, they focused on doors opening mysteriously.

A cantrip establishes it is something the Cleric habitually does. That would require re-writing Acolyte, which most people would be fine with. It wouldn't give exploitable benefits that would need to be curbed with silly arbitrary limits. And with better design the benefits might actually be tied to the ceremony itself, rather than be an AC or saving throw bonus.

Huh? They focused on items that would actually be functional in play. A cantrip would be a VASTLY higher cost than a ritual 1st level spell that one can swap out every day. Notwithstanding that the concept of a cantrip - a minor or simple magical spell (originally orison for prayer) learned as an apprentice or acolyte seems inappropriate with the concept of a significant ceremony marking a major life-change performed by a full-fledged clergyman.

 

[Oofta]

First, Acolytes (the background) have the ability for basic religious ceremonies. This spell takes that away.
Second, the mechanical implementation is clumsy, with the day-long or week-long benefits that one can benefit from once.
Third, the benefits given are completely divorced from the type of ceremony it is.

I would just say that the basic religious ceremonies are different from the holy blessings of the gods. In addition, the ceremonies listed are appropriate for adventurers or to deal with supernatural threats like most of the spells in the book. In my world there are NPC casters that are much more focused on mundane magic (easing pain of child-birth, blessing crops and so on) but that type of mundane magic could be it's own section of a book that I doubt anyone would buy.

In addition, this is a ritual. No one has to ever prepare it, it can always be cast as long as they have the material components. I for one am glad they clarified how to make holy water and the ability to make it when they need it is good. Stopping the dead from rising is also quite useful.

But, much like no game can be written to please everyone, not every spell in the book is going to please everyone. I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.

 

[seebs]

Well, you can see the quote specifically calls out if the feature has a duration. That's the case here.

The duration qualifier is on a specific thing -- advantage on next melee attack. The temporary hit points aren't in that sentence at all, so you just gain them.

 

[Xaelvaen]

3. Paladin’s Oath of Redemption (XG 38-39). No longer has the Armor of Peace or the Warrior of Reconciliation features. Does this mean Redemption paladins are still carrying greatswords and wearing heavy armor? Doesn’t this undercut the concept? (It certainly seems at odds with the illustration provided).

I'm with you here - my hands down most disappointing aspect of Xanathar's. I loved the Oath of Redemption, so I've had to just make my own balanced version of the playtest material. Armor of Peace has already created two fantastic paladin concepts in my games since the UA came out, and no way I'll give those up for plate-wearing peace-speakers. I mean, a dex-based paladin with an AC of 21 is no different than +3 Plate in the long-haul, why do I care if it comes a couple levels earlier than normal?

 

[Kobold Stew]

A cantrip would be a VASTLY higher cost than a ritual 1st level spell that one can swap out every day.

Which is why I also suggested a basic level 1 Cleric ability.

In addition, this is a ritual. No one has to ever prepare it, it can always be cast as long as they have the material components.

That's not the way rituals work.

I for one am glad they clarified how to make holy water and the ability to make it when they need it is good. Stopping the dead from rising is also quite useful.

Agreed.

 

[Kobold Stew]

The duration qualifier is on a specific thing -- advantage on next melee attack. The temporary hit points aren't in that sentence at all, so you just gain them.

I'm not denying the interpretation you're putting forward; I'm just saying it's badly worded. The PHB doesn't say "sentence", it says "feature". What "feature" are we talking about? I would say "Fighting Spirit". "Fighting Spirit" has a duration. Ergo...

 

[seebs]

I'm not denying the interpretation you're putting forward; I'm just saying it's badly worded. The PHB doesn't say "sentence", it says "feature". What "feature" are we talking about? I would say "Fighting Spirit". "Fighting Spirit" has a duration. Ergo...

I agree that it's badly worded, but I think the bad wording is on the thing saying "feature". But consider: Is the "feature" for the aid spell "Spellcasting"? Because that's the *feature*. Sort of. So I think it's more "when an ability or feature or something specifies a duration for the temporary hit point effect, or for itself as a whole when it provides temporary hit points". But this feature appears to specify two different effects. So, agreed the wording could be better.