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Pathfinder 1E This is why pathfinder has been successful.

D&D has always been the 'big tent' game, its incoherence has been a strength, enabling it to be adapted to lots of different playstyles using the same ruleset and genre tropes.

I strongly disagree. 1e to me appears very focussed on dungeon crawling right down to how you get most of your XP - to me that's the biggest difference between 1e and 2e. If I want a broader game I'll break out GURPS. But I don't normally. I want a game that does what I want to do well.
 

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Mallus

Legend
Agreed. For me this is not a problem, because I don't particularly care for random encounters, or "filler"/attrition encounters, in my game.
<tangent warning!>

I've warmed to random encounters of late, thanks to running AD&D again. As long as they don't take too much time to resolve --ie, an hour-long combat-- I'm finding they're a great way of introducing new elements to the session/campaign, and it's fun fitting them into the larger picture.

While they (usually) give the players nothing more than a new tactical challenge to beat the snot out of (or avoid), they also can give me the opportunity to respond to things other than the PCs actions. That can be an interesting challenge, and it helps stave off authorial overdetermination.

For instance, during a week's travel last session, I rolled...

... and encounter with giant ants (does this have anything to do with the bug-like goddess the PCs just freed from a dungeon? It might rabbit, it might -- though it surely wasn't planned)

... bad weather in the form of a time-storm (from a little chart I wrote up). This led to another random encounter with some temporally-displaced dinosaurs, and the party finding a gem made of "crystallized time" -- I have no idea what that means, but I'm sure I will eventually.

... and a meeting with a 12th-level orc fighter and her followers. Someone I had to come up with on the spot. Turns out she was Lady Graal, with her war-band, the Nights of Unfortunate Parentage --aka, the Glorious Bastards-- on a mission for "the government" to find the Shrine of the Vacant Angel at Lalebeilia (thus name-dropping a potential future adventure while introducing a ally or adversary).

tl;dr version - random encounters can be a useful creativity-boosting trick.
 

IronWolf

blank
Neonchameleon said:
There's a term for people and things stupid enough to attack parties of adventurers. Darwin Award Candidates.

This is your stance? This seems to sort of go against everything in a D&D/Pathfinder game if this where you are going to draw your line. Why would anything *ever* risk the ire of a party of adventurers? People wouldn't do anything wrong or put great plots in motion as it might attract the attention of a party of adventurer. Beasts of the world would never attack people or villages because they are potentially the harder prey.

Looking over the list random encounters it doesn't take much at all to make the majority of those plausible. Some as written are going to see a party of adventurers as prey. Some are going to be under orders from someone they *are* afraid of and risk an encounter because they *know* their boss will have their hides if they don't. Some are apt to be territorial and will place defense of that territory high on the list of prioritization, even if it means defending it from the unknown. Some feed on fear, fear they can strike in a party of adventurers.

Neonchameleon said:
The problem is a broken system that forces certain modes of play on the players and DMs and requires the DMs to work hard to make up for the limitations of the system. Elf Witch also has problems however much she defends the system - IIRC she uses a spreadsheet to plan. I get enough of spreadsheets at work.

As I've said before, if I take my play style, apply it to another system and have a less than pleasant experience that does not mean the system I was trying was broken. It means my playstyle is not a good fit for that system. That is why we have so many games to choose from, so there is a niche for everyone. You found a system that did not match your playstyle. No issues at all with that, it happens. It does not then mean that system was broken though.

People use spreadsheets for all sorts of game management. I use Word at work too, should I declare a system too much work because I choose to write my campaign story in Word? Or how about email? I use that all the time at work, should I declare the system broken becaus I use email to touch base with players betweeen the game? Going even further back I used to use binders of loose leaf paper and pencils to organize my game, same thing I used for school work. That certainly isn't something that condemns a game or proves brokenness.

Being a GM takes some work. Use the tools you need to to keep organized. If a system feels like too much work for you then definitly look around to find one that fits what you have in mind for prep. But again, this does not make a system broken.
 

TheAuldGrump

First Post
But is this going on every day? And if you are relying on the mere possibility, how hair-trigger do you expect the PCs to be? Are they really to live every day - and the players to play as if - every day may be the outbreak of WW1?

I'm happy to drive play through frenetic action, but I'm not sure I would want to try and drive it through what (if I've understood it right) seems to me to be a type of frenetic anticipation.
But where are they on the days that it matters? It is the possibility that any particular day may matter that keeps them moving, and the certainty that if they waste enough time then they will fail.

So my PCs don't risk the consequences of a 15 MAD - they know that I will allow them to fail

Even more annoying sometimes is when somebody else does the deed of daring do - when the PCs discover the bad guys crucified to the wall, and a biblical passage scrawled in their blood. (That happened in a Vampire game once - the PCs told somebody what the bad guys were up to, but then didn't do anything about it. The person that they told was not so faint hearted. He was also a sociopath....)

Time may not always matter, but to make a blanket statement that time never matters, and never did is about as false as possible, I would call it codswallop and nonsense, but then I run steampunk games.

Something major may not happen every day, but there are indeed *BAM* episodes, and if those days happen while the PCs are off licking their wounds.... Whoops, WWI has just started, so sorry guys, but this is now your fault.

Most episodes are just episodes - they advance the plot, and provide clues. Others are crucial, and can change the course of the game.

In honesty I would describe my games as involving one part of information gathering for every two or three parts action. My models is more Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy than Mission: Impossible. Though I could describe it as more Mission: Impossible (original) than Mission: Impossible (Cruise crap) - investigation and the working out of schedules was important in the original.

This is also why I call the 15 MAD lazy - the party is wasting time, and time will keep ticking. They have decided that their convenience is more important than what is going on in the world. Nap time!

The PCs are important, it is why I may put them in Sarajevo, but time marches on without them.

Let us say I put them down in the area about a month before the Archduke is shot? If they confront part of the Black Hand, use their spells in a mad Nova (remember, the Black Hand was largely a 'conspiracy of clerks' - not skilled assassins) to take down the ones in the beer hall basement, then rest the remaining few will relocate, and perhaps push their agenda forwards (or back) a few days. (What, you don't remember the AustroHungarians having fireballs? :p )

Time matters.

And not just in major things - every day wasted could be a day wasted. Opportunities might be missed. No guarantees either way. :) The thing is that the PCs don't know which days are important and which is not.

Sometimes days can pass when nothing happens, sometimes it is just an opportunity to gather information from the courier that is going to be in town for one night, then leave in the morning. Sometimes it is just the villain's henchmen come into town to get supplies. And sometimes it is just a matter of knowing the tides, and when the sea caves down the coast can be entered.

Other days something major happens - be it an attack on the town, the Archduke getting gunned down, or the necromancer awakening the lich under the barrow downs.

For a sandbox setting I cheat - time starts when the PCs reach an area. So, in my Fallout game, time in Gibsonton, Florida didn't really start until the PCs found a loose two trunked elephant, and tried to figure out what to do with it.

In this instance they took it back towards town, getting them in good with the Freakshow that owned it, which led to them helping protect the town from Raiders, which led to.... Time is passing in Gibtown now but I waited 'til the PCs arrived.

They have noticed that the super mutants, including the behemoth, will start getting agitated, then get a faraway look in their eyes and calm down.

They have noted several important townsfolk, including some Romany, getting that same faraway look, then change the direction of their conversation.

The overall plotline for the town involves a mind controlling mutant, similar to The Master... He is using his power to help calm the super mutants, and really wants to get the circus rolling before he dies in a bit less (or a bit more, depending on the PCs) than a year. DC style super mutants, The Ringmaster's influence allows them to think without pain. He mostly just talks to the townies, and only 'controls' the super mutants only to keep them from going into rages.

Unlike The Master in the old Fallout game, he is not one of the bad guys.

Likewise, the timeline for the Darkened Tunnels does not begin until the PCs reach Disneyworld, and meet ghoul/paladin Ethan Sparkes.

On the other hand Henry P. LaTota has an agenda based on certain astrological occurrences (Solstice, Equinox, Cross Quarter) - a lot of times the PCs won't be in a position to stop him, but will hear about what happened later. (He is the Big Bad for the campaign. AKA The Royal Pant, Randolph Flagg, the Herald of the End Time, and perhaps to become known as Holy Crap - it's Nyarlathotep! Run!)

The PCs may never realize that he is a direct counterpoint to The Lone Wanderer from Vault 101 and Harold, the Man in the Tree. The characters in Fallout 3 started the world toward healing, Henry P. LaTota is turning it toward destruction.

His timeline occupies a bit more than a year, and his clock began ticking the day the PCs began their travels from Vault 415. They will meet him for the first time (though they have seen him at a distance before) on Friday. Urbane and charming he will be in the role of tempter, this time.

I rather suspect that they will hate him right off the bat, no matter how silver tongued he might be. Gibtown is a town of freaks, mutants, gypsies, and oddities, and looks to be shaping up to become their home base. He is representing two groups known as The Skins and The Kreiger - neo-Nazis....

The Auld Grump
 

BryonD

Hero
And I have emphatically disagreed with this time and again.
You are not talking about the same thing at all.
The playstyle that Neonchameleon likes is the playstyle that 4E does well.
And for that one playstyle Neonchameleon can jump from genre to genre.

Of COURSE 4E wins over and over FOR YOU. I'd don't challenge that in the least. But this isn't about you. And this isn't about me. This is about creating as large of a fan base as possible.

But that comes down to why 4E fans love 4E some deeply and at the same time it lost so much fan base.
Don't confuse applying the same general playstyle to multiple genres with actually supporting a wide range of playstyles.

Also, don't confuse the default D&D 3E magic system with the range of options that the core D20 system was capable of supporting.
 



gamerprinter

Mapper/Publisher
Phew. I'm exhausted. Dead horse beaten guys. Dead horse beaten.

Yeah, I've basically left this thread alone, since my last post. Nobody is convincing anyone else to one idea or another, this is only traveling in circles. No sense even agreeing to disagreeing, as I don't think the sides will agree to anything (nothing reasonable anyway...)
 

pemerton

Legend
While there may be occasions where the party meets a big encounter and blows all it's resources, requiring it to fall back on a 15 MAD, most of the time, you've got a mix of small encounters, big encounters, open ended encounters, exploration, and role play. This isn't modifying the rule system to overcome a flaw. This is the way the game is supposed to be played.
This is the sort of thing I had in mind, when I said that spreading the action out over the day might create a broader dynamic that reduces the incentives to the 15 MAD.

I'm not sure whether what you describe is the way the game is supposed to be played - I don't think any DMG talks about play expectations in that much detail. It's personally not the way that I like to run a game - it's a bit too rambling for my taste.

Do you play games above 6th level in the same way as you're describing here?

But where are they on the days that it matters?

<snip>

So my PCs don't risk the consequences of a 15 MAD - they know that I will allow them to fail

<snip>

Time may not always matter, but to make a blanket statement that time never matters, and never did is about as false as possible

<snip>

Something major may not happen every day, but there are indeed *BAM* episodes, and if those days happen while the PCs are off licking their wounds.... Whoops, WWI has just started, so sorry guys, but this is now your fault.
OK, makes sense.

I'm getting my threads confused, but this takes me back to the "failure offscreen"/"no failure offscreen" discussion. I subscribe to the second approach.

random encounters can be a useful creativity-boosting trick.
The closest analogue I have to this is reading through my monster books, seeing a creature I like the look of and thinking about how to incorporate it.
 


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