Those tricksy skills: Hide and Move Silently!

[Breakdaddy]

I like this take on it, I will probably use this as circumstances permit. I dont have a copy of the rules here in front of me, but would faerie fire automatically negate invis or just provide bonuses against invisible opponents affected by Faerie Fire?

I went to the SRD for the FF question and found my answer. I also like the Taking 0 rule stated earlier for Rogues in light armor while moving. Do you count this on a full move, or only on a 1/2 rate move as with full hide checks?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Excellent info! Thanks for your insight and for the reference. On the off-chance that the Rogue gets off a shot then actually successfully hides (with -20 to his check no less!) due to the shoddy spot check of the enemy ranged attacker, will this negate any and all chance that the enemy can fire at him or does he just take big penalties to fire at the successfully hiding Rogue?

The penalties to tag the Rogue are the same as for Invisibility: 50% miss chance and you have to guess the right square.

 

[Breakdaddy]

The penalties to tag the Rogue are the same as for Invisibility: 50% miss chance and you have to guess the right square.

Thats the crux of the matter, though. Wouldnt it be readily apparent that since the PC took a standard move to attack and a move-equivalent to hide the square he occupied would remain the same as when he attacked (meta gaming issues aside)?

 

[DanMcS]

Thats the crux of the matter, though. Wouldnt it be readily apparent that since the PC took a standard move to attack and a move-equivalent to hide the square he occupied would remain the same as when he attacked (meta gaming issues aside)?

No. If the sniper makes his hide check at -20 versus your spot, you literally do not know what square he attacked from. You didn't see him. You were looking the wrong way when he shot or something.

 

[Aaron2]

If you have total cover, you could lean out to 9/10 cover, shoot, and lean back; the leaning would be a free action, and then the hide check at -20 would represent trying not to be spotted AS you shoot, not afterward.

Don't forget that improved cover (the peeking out from behind something) also gives a +10 bonus to Hide, making it much easier to snipe from.


Aaron

 

[Breakdaddy]

A lot of this really illustrates how mighty the Hide in Plain Sight abilities can be. I assume that, for example, a high level Ranger in a woodland setting with HIPS could fire and then attempt a HIDE sans any -20 bonus. This makes a Ranger in the wild powerful indeed (as it should be). Thanks for all the great feedback, I am going to print this thread and give it the once over when its run its course!

 

[nhl_1997]

Thats the crux of the matter, though. Wouldnt it be readily apparent that since the PC took a standard move to attack and a move-equivalent to hide the square he occupied would remain the same as when he attacked (meta gaming issues aside)?

I'm assuming 3.5 edition. If this thread is using 3.0 rules, ignore this post.

Hiding is not a "move-equivalent" action ("move-equivalent actions no longer exist, but that's the the point of this post.) Hiding is typically a non-action taken as part of a move.


Meta-game thinking:
Suppose a human you see, located 150' away just beyond a 3' wall, uses bluff to create a diversion (standard action). When you turn back to where that person was, you can no longer see him.

With your previous assumption that hiding is a move action, it would be obvious that the human is still right there behind the wall (he just ducked below the wall while your attention was diverted.)

However, since hiding is actually part of a move action, he could be up to half his movement rate away from where you previously saw him (or up to his full movement away if he took a penalty on the hide check.)


Character thinking:
"Well, he cannot be too far from where I just saw him. I think I'll just center my sunburst (80' radius) where I last saw him and hope he's within the area."

 

[Len]

A lot of this really illustrates how mighty the Hide in Plain Sight abilities can be. I assume that, for example, a high level Ranger in a woodland setting with HIPS could fire and then attempt a HIDE sans any -20 bonus.

There has been a lot of discussion about hiding, HiPS, attacking and sniping, and different DMs rule it differently.

 

[Breakdaddy]

I'm assuming 3.5 edition. If this thread is using 3.0 rules, ignore this post.

Hiding is not a "move-equivalent" action ("move-equivalent actions no longer exist, but that's the the point of this post.) Hiding is typically a non-action taken as part of a move.


Meta-game thinking:
Suppose a human you see, located 150' away just beyond a 3' wall, uses bluff to create a diversion (standard action). When you turn back to where that person was, you can no longer see him.

With your previous assumption that hiding is a move action, it would be obvious that the human is still right there behind the wall (he just ducked below the wall while your attention was diverted.)

However, since hiding is actually part of a move action, he could be up to half his movement rate away from where you previously saw him (or up to his full movement away if he took a penalty on the hide check.)


Character thinking:
"Well, he cannot be too far from where I just saw him. I think I'll just center my sunburst (80' radius) where I last saw him and hope he's within the area."

Great points, all of us missed this rules change (we went from 3e and are now playing 3.5e). It makes a huge difference, great catch on that one!

 

[ARandomGod]

I went to the SRD for the FF question and found my answer. I also like the Taking 0 rule stated earlier for Rogues in light armor while moving. Do you count this on a full move, or only on a 1/2 rate move as with full hide checks?

Definitely on a full move. If they're moving at 1/2, then they get a roll for each move to see what their MS is. If you don't want to roll for each move, have 'em roll once, and again when circumstances change (or again randomly, just because. You can make a roll every move action, but that's potentially a lot of rolling).

Sure, they're powerful skills. And HiPS makes it even more so. But it's nothing compared to spellcasting, and they had to invest a lot into it. Rogues ARE their skills. Some of those skills *should* be powerful.