Thoughts on Hybrid Classes?

[77IM]

The devil is in the details -- how do you make an arcane trickster almost as strikey as a rogue and almost as controlley as a wizard, such that he overshadows neither but is still cool on his own?

Rogues' sneak attack is +2d6. It's situational, but after just a few levels, those situations seem to come up constantly. It's balanced somewhat by the fact that his attack powers have a lower damage die than the ranger and warlock powers. So going with that, one way to balance is to just drop the damage -- maybe it's only a +1d6 sneak attack, or even a +1d6 at-will similar to warlocks and rangers (coupled with the lower damage die, because the trickster would be dealing [W] damage with weak weapons). Another way might be to make the damage even less convenient than sneak attack. For example, maybe it takes an action to apply like the curse/quarry, but you can only apply it to someone you have combat advantage against. You could build the trickster's powers to have poor synergy with his striker bonus damage (many of the rogue's powers grant him combat advantage; maybe the trickster's powers don't). Or you could go the other way and give the trickster no striker bonus damage, but instead make his class powers high-[W], single-target effects.

The wizard has ranged area attacks that deal decent damage and inflict status effects. To make the arcane trickster an almost-wizard, maybe he only has close area powers, so he has to get up into the thick of things to use them (which is where he should be anyway, to do his stabbing). Maybe his area attacks don't target allies, which would be a slight advantage over the wizard. I think the idea I like best is that his area powers would deal very little damage compared to a wizard. This is sort of a hidden "switch" mechanic; if the trickster wants to control the battlefield, he's doing a bit less damage, but when he focuses on one target, he can pour on the damage, striker-style. A grease-type power seems like exactly the sort of power this hybrid would utilize.


Those are just some general suggestions of how I would approach the problem. I don't really have any more concrete ideas -- it sounds like you've put more thought into specific hybrid combos than I have. Hybrid classes will definitely require playtesting to ensure that you hit the balance between too good and too mediocre.

-- 77IM

 

[Cadfan]

I have mixed feelings on hybrids.

I'm not sure that the game needs to loudly proclaim whether a particular class is "hybrid." A role is a task, and one can be suited for it without being "officially" designed for it. For example, you can do an ok job at defending just by engaging an enemy in melee and not dying, even if you have no explicit defender powers.

So... I have two comments. First, my take on the different classes and their roles, and second, my take on the so called multiclassing problem and how it relates to future class releases.

My take:

Fighter
Defender, but fighter style defending overlaps with control as long as the targets to be controlled are within your melee reach.

Paladin
Defender, but overlaps with leader

Cleric
Leader, but can overlap with defender or controller depending on build choices.

Warlord
Leader, but overlaps with defender.

Rogue
Striker, doesn't overlap with much, but does some defending by default (if a monster is fighting the rogue, it isn't eating the wizard)

Ranger
Striker, melee build overlaps with defender

Warlock
Striker, but overlaps with controller, sometimes very heavily (high level fey pact warlock is one of the best action denial characters in the entire game)

Wizard
Controller, but overlaps with striker

So what we see is that each class overlaps with the others an awful lot. And in spite of this, people still feel there is a multiclassing problem. Think about it for a moment, though- if the issue was mixing of roles, well, if you wanted to play a fighter-mage, for the role selection, wouldn't you just select a cleric? You could get defender like melee powers and area of effect blasts and bursts, all built into one class that also gives you armor and high hit points. And yet no one does that.

My theory is that people aren't really worried about mixing roles. They're worried about mixing power sources. Using a cleric for a gish doesn't satisfy people because of theme, not because of mechanics. The mechanics are all right there, but divine magic isn't the same theme as arcane, and divine melee isn't the same as martial melee. It doesn't "feel" the same.

Unfortunately, the designers have basically made power source into destiny. People thought that roles would be destiny, but this didn't turn out to be true- but power sources? Look at the paladin- zero martial attacks on a class that is traditionally thought of as at least partially martial. Every attack invokes divine power in some way. It didn't have to be that way.

I think this is a big part of what drives the desire for multiclassing. I don't know if WOTCs solution, releasing classes like the Swordmage, will satisfy people, because in the end all of the Swordmage's attacks are arcane. Not a single martial attack amongst them. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Sphyre]

I look forward to Hybrid classes. Multiclassing gives you a spritz of a few abilities, but not until you do paragon multiclassing do you really even start to get a hybrid role - and that's only if you get a role-defining at-will power from the class.

The thing is, for every role, except the controller, most of the things that define roles are class features. When you multiclass you can get an encounter utility and daily power. At most you'll get to do something that was meant for a different class 3 times in one encounter, and once for the rest of the encounters in the day (and average combat is 10 rounds)

Multiclassing may make some interesting combos, but it doesn't grant you the stuff that actually defines the roles. Even if multiclassing was imbalanced and sucked in 3e, it was at least a choice. Now it's just a spritzing of a few abilities that don't really define anything other than flavor.

If you have hybrids, you don't need multiclassing. If you have multiclassing, you don't need hybrids unless it's not done right (which is why there was multiclassing and then later hybrids in 3e)

 

[Exen Trik]

There is another way that might create a workable hybrid, besides the role switching method.

Consider this: If a class fills two roles at once by doing each half as well, then it is simply failing at both roles. But if it has a specific function that it does well, and happens to fill both roles in a limited scope, that could considered a hybrid.

One example is a swashbuckling styled defender/striker hybrid that specializes on one on one combat, with the defenderish abilities to declare one enemy to mark and restrict it's ability to move and attack others, and the strikerish ability to deal some extra damage. She wouldn't be as good at holding back or striking down a wave of minions, but she could still hold her own.

Similarly, a defender/leader hybrid could be a sort of guardian, devoted to protecting one ally at a time. He uses a kind of reverse mark on his ally, and can then defending his ally more effectively with a specialized form of combat challenge. He would also boost the allies offensive or defensive abilities, depending on if the ally is a fellow tough guy or a squishy. The benefits conferred would be a little stronger than a leaders normal fare, but with less flexible. Throw in a mutual guardian/ally healing power and you're good to go. As long he doesn't fight alone, he's fills both his roles well, and no better or worse than anyone else.

Striker/leaders would increase damage to enemies, but not necessarily by their own hand. Imagine a shamanic war chief, rushing into combat shouting his war band onward and enshrouding his allies weapons with energies to strike down a designated foe. There's probably a good number of ways to do this mechanically.

I'm a bit less certain on controller combos, because they are more defined by powers than class features, but the same principle should still apply. So long as the controller powers are restricted and the other role is limited in how it does it's thing but has strong synergy with the controller aspect it should work fine.

 

[Cwheeler]

This is the same problem we have with the system. Most of the people in our game group (at least those that started RPing before MMOs) see character design in exactly the same way. We generate a "fantasy character" concept in our head and then sit down and try to mash that concept into the rules system. It simply doesn't work.

A few months back there where a couple of good threads on making a classless system that could fit these desires well.

Here is a link for one of the more recent and complete drafts: http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/236466-class-free-d-d-4th-edition.html

For the

"half-elf paladin with an infernal pact (he fights fire with fire), and he does two-weapon fighting with a flail in each hand?"

, we can do something like this:

Bonus Hp: 1 point
Light + Heavy Armor: 2 points
Military Melee Weapons: 1 point
Warlocks Curse: 5 points
Lay on Hands: 2 points
2 Weapon Fighting Style: 2 points
Divine Challenge: 5 points

That's just a quick whip-up, and I don't know how it'd play (I'd probably actually drop divine challenge for something else), but it's a good example of how to achieve the 'imagine it then make it' style of character creation.

 

[Turtlejay]

I am surprised that nobody brings up the economy of actions. A hybrid role would not really be too out of line as long as it did not outshine the 2 roles it pulls from, and that will be relatively easy as long as he does not get more actions. Part of what makes defenders so great is the extra attacks they get (or threaten to get). If a hybrid defender/x also got those, on top of something else, he would be getting more than a straight defender. The switch idea works because you are not getting more actions than another player.

Granted this breaks down out of combat, if you are able to switch without regard to actions, but roles sort of break down, too.

Jay

 

[Anthelios]

I have been working on a hybrid class myself for an upcoming game I'm going to run and have run into the problems posted above about not outshining the primary role character with the hybrid.

Now if we look to the MMO model there are plenty of Hybrids to look at, and how they can get away with it is by focusing on just one thing they do well, or by making them having to choose what they do well (both are presented above). This tends to make these style of characters fun to play, in MMOs, and I can say from personal experience that the classes as written can be built to be hybrids themselves. For example:

A fighter / Pit Fighter that focuses on heavy blades and pumping up his damage output can be a bigger striker than a warlock. However his marking and damage output will get him into trouble, as that much focus on offense is going to leave him weaker against attacks than your average defender of the same level.

Back to the MMO model, I think it's also important to note that certain things are fair game for Hybrids and others are not. For example, healing is a good ability to pass out to a hybrid. Its a function no one will complain about having more of, and its only a bit of the Leader's domain. Leaders have other buff/attack abilities to assist their companions, they aren't just healers. Adding healing therefore does not take away from their shine, but adds something to the party that is always in demand.

A second role seems to be strikers. Strikers deal damage in some form and style. Close up, ranged, AC or other defense targeted. Conditional damage seems to be the name of the game when it comes to 4E strikers. Each strike has its own place in the battle, and only a few strikers actually get in each others way (Namely warlocks cant curse the same target, lowering their damage against solos and elites).

Control can also be a viable Hybrid option, but again you need to limit it so that it doesn't outshine control specialists. In my opinion though the wizard should have a bit more striker than he currently does, but that's an issue I plan to address in my own campaign.

So far from my experience in a few different groups, strikers seem to be the most popular role to play, with leaders behind them and defenders and controllers in the rear. Controllers actually seem the least popular, but that could just be my experiences with players. If we look at the MMO model again, the same holds true in those games. In WoW, hunters and rangers rain supreme. Shadow Priests and Locks as well. Everyone wants to do the big damage. The other classes are necessary to play, but its easy to find the damage dealers, as they are always a ton out there looking for a spot.

So Hybrids actually seem like a pretty viable option as long as you borrow from the less popular classes, and add in components from the more popular classes. A Striker with some control (EQ: Necromancers, WoW: Shamans, Hunters). Defender with Leader (EQ: Shadow Knights, Paladins, WoW: Paladins) and Control with Leader/Striker (EQ: Shaman, Druid Wow: Mage, Warlock, SPriest)

So, here are some things I think fit well into hybrid styles:

1.) Controller Striker with melee/ranged ability - Their controls will be single specific or less effective against a group. They will have to specialize in ranged or melee abilities and will have more conditional controls than the wizard, but higher single target damage. In very specific conditions their damage may be higher than pure strikers, but that is rare.

Suggested abilities: Conditional damage adders - Like adding d6s when you have combat advantage with a ranged weapon, much harder than melee since you can't flank to gain it. Buff or Control abilities - Make their damage dependent on the amount of control they are doing; Say, they add damage to their attacks but can drop the extra damage to apply an effect, like slow.

MMO Reference: This could be similar to a WoW paladins strikes and seals. The seal gives a minor effect, but is consistent. Using it up could cause a surge in damage but no more status effect, or can do the reverse: Minor damage upgrade or sacrifice it for a status effect.

2.) Defender with Leader or Striker- A healer who's abilities are centered around him taking damage instead of other people. The paladin has a few abilities like this already. Another option is to make it a front line single target defender who's damage increases as he takes damage himself, similar to a barbarian, or who's ability to heal is based around how much harm he inflicts/is inflicted upon him.

Suggested Abilities: Hits that are more powerful when bloodied. Heals that only trigger while bloodied or on crits. Absorbing allies damage, minor buffs that heal when they are damaged, but buff is consumed. Defenses rely on first taking a few hits before reacting to the damage; ie - Hit by fire before they can give themselves a fire resistance.

MMO Equivalents: I think the EQ Shadow Knight is a good example of this sort of character, and isn't presented much any longer. Could give them a harm touch that damaged the target and heals themselves, but consumes a healing surge and they must be bloody to use. Could also give them attacks that grant temp HP as they hit foes, or a bonus to defenses when they critically hit or are critically hit. There are lots of ways to tie the defense aspect into a striker or a leader.

3.) Melee Control with leader or Striker - Similar to the above one, mostly because I think the game could use some more control. Force the control to be situation to what they can do.

Suggested Abilities: Condition transference, buff/debuffs. Say, they slow a target and an ally gets a bonus to their speed. Or they daze a target an they take an additional melee basic attack. You can make the benefits conditional, and if a leader style in the mix make it conditional on others. Like, while you are flanking with an ally you grant someone within range 5 combat advantage against that foe.

MMO Examples: The EQ Shaman and even the WoW shaman are good examples. Both have the ability to heal, but it is more defined than other healers. EQ shamans were excellent at the heals over time, but their direct heals were weak. They were the best at some types of control, though, yet totally lacked others. They had some of the best buffs for melee but had almost none for casters. Shamans in WoW have potent buffs that rely on emanations from a fixed point, their totems. They can be strong strikers, but they really cant buff their control aspect at all, its stuck at what it is. They can also be very temporary defenders with summoned elementals.

I think also a summoning class will make a pretty interesting change to the game, I'd like to see what Wizards has in store for summoning, but I have some ideas myself that I'm working on, to make them conditional hybrids based on the summons.

Anyway, in closing I think the biggest thing to remember is that if your going to make hybrids they need to be fun to play, but not just two of other classes put together. Conditional benefits are your friend here, just look at the examples we've already seen in the RAW.

 

[Cadfan]

Turtlejay-

The problem with using the action economy to balance hybrid roles is that it doesn't always work right.

If you're a controller, sometimes you'll be in situations where control is the best choice, and sometimes you'll be in situations where a different role might be the best choice. But if a controller is all you are, you'll be forced to use control abilities at a time when maybe leader abilities might be more useful.

If you're a controller/leader hybrid, you won't have that problem. You'll use the best ability for the circumstance.

So, yes, you only get a certain amount of actions per round, but hybrid roles allow you to optimize them a bit better. Which means there should be a cost elsewhere.

 

[Turtlejay]

A hybrid role would not really be too out of line as long as it did not outshine the 2 roles it pulls from

A hybrid would have to be less than the 2 roles it is pulling from, that is what I was saying (poorly) there. I need to be more clear, I am sorry, I was talking here about having 2 roles with a switch, like the druid wildshaping to become a striker or defender. That way you aren't totally prepared at any moment to be both. If it takes an action to shift, even better. And as a hybrid striker or defender you should still not be as good as the fighter/paladin/swordmage who has dedicated his like to it, just better than the 2 weapon ranger who thinks he is a defender.

Jay