Thoughts on the alignment of Assassins

[Kormydigar]

People who kill people just because they were told to kill people are evil, not neutral.

Only if they don't ask, or care, why.

 

[Umbran]

So, all soldiers are evil?

First off, let us be be very, very careful about this moving into real-world examples. That can amount to politics, which we'd rather avoid.

After that - we must consider the motivation of the soldier. Is the soldier a mercenary, who really doesn't care who they kill? Are they a patriot out to defend their homeland? A conscript who doesn't have fully free choice in the matter?

 

[diaglo]

People who kill people just because they were told to kill people are evil, not neutral.

in a D&D world where animals can be smarter than humanoids...

does killing for food count as evil?

edit: is cannibalism evil? is giving a pig a name and then killing it when you've fattened it up evil?

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

Honestly, it seems to me it's just leftover 2e squeamishness. "Look, we let them back into the game, but not as a core class, and they're explicitly evil - it says so right here!" Assassins being, of course, one of the central beefs the Satan-scare-mongers had in the eighties, they got nixed along with named demon princes and such. As far as the possibility of a Good- (or at least non-Evil-) aligned assassin, let's all just admit that alignment in the game (never mind in RL) is extremely subjective at best, and has pretty much become just another energy type like sonic and fire, something to get bonuses against. (I've got my +5 codpiece of resist evil on, can't hurt me you stinky demon, nyahh nyahh!)

And, as far as the morality/alignment of the various groups / individuals that kill (maim, torture, etc.) for their various and sundry causes in the real world... This is me shutting up, now. *zip*

 

[JoeGKushner]

in a D&D world where animals can be smarter than humanoids...

does killing for food count as evil?

edit: is cannibalism evil? is giving a pig a name and then killing it when you've fattened it up evil?

It's the worst type of evil.

Delicious Evil.

I too suffer from having a DE alignment. I try to mullify my conscious by naming the animals after things I will make of them. "Here pork chop. Here pork chop..."

It doesn't work. Woe is me. The angst! The angst!

 

[Sammael]

First off, let us be be very, very careful about this moving into real-world examples. That can amount to politics, which we'd rather avoid.

Are you implying that there are no soldiers in fiction or role-playing games? Why would it have to have a real-world connotation?

Is the soldier a mercenary, who really doesn't care who they kill?

Many adventurers are mercs in disguise. They get their assignments, get the job done, and get paid (or fail and get killed, but I digress). They wonder very little about motivations. Being a merc is a state of mind on its own, and mercs can be of any alignment.

Are they a patriot out to defend their homeland?

What if their homeland is evil (or at least acts that way towards its neighbors), and brings war upon itself? Does their patriotism make them good? Patriotism is, like mercenaryship, sans alignment.

A conscript who doesn't have fully free choice in the matter?

That's probably the most typical fantasy soldier.

Soldiers are trained to obey orders. If they don't obey orders, they can make life very difficult for their team-mates. There is no room for philosophical ponderings on a battlefield; hesitate for a moment, and you're dead. This is why officers have command-line responsibility; if they give an order, the soldiers are to fulfill it. If it turns out the order was bad in some way, the officer is the one taking the blame. Except in evil societies, of course, where blaming the underlings is the standard.

 

[Storyteller01]

He could be any alignment. The difference is, the person targeted by a police sniper most likely poses a direct and immediate danger to other people. Also, a sniper is usually the method of last resort for police. A military sniper, on the other hand, is most certainly not good, the closest he could be would be LN.

Second, a supposedly "good" assassin would have to be looked at very closely. Does he attempt to use nonlethal methods to accomplish an assignment? If not, and immediate lethal force is his preferred method, even if that is what he was ordered to do, then neither the assassin nor the organization that ordered the "hit" is good.

For someone to be good, both goals and methods have to be pretty much beyond reproach. Too many lapses for expediency, and you have a guy who is pretty darned neutral, although he might still believe he's good.

Why wouldn't the military sniper be good? Even though he's trained in a premeditated method of killing, he still cannot take that shot without gaining confirmation via radio or pre-instructed orders. A sniper could kill other targets, but we agree that he would be evil. What would the sniper who follows orders and kills only the target be?

Both examples are of someone killing another on orders from what they believe to be a higher authority, on the auspices that that individual is a threat that is better dead than alive. Both are methods of last resort (snipers have to return through alerted enemy territory, and training costs more than training a typical infantryman or several boxes of mortar rounds).

 

[Umbran]

in a D&D world where animals can be smarter than humanoids...

Creatures with the Animal type can only have Inteligence scores of 1 or 2. Creatures with "humanlike" intelligence have Int of 3 or higher. While technically the Humanoid type does not specify 3 or higher, that's gotta be one really dumb humanoid.

Technically, "Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral rather than good or evil." I expect a DM might well rule that Int of 1 or 2 is simply too low to make moral judgements.

does killing for food count as evil?

If the animal is treated with respect, and dispatched in a humane manner, probably not. The question becomes somewhat more murky if you're talking about a sentient creature.

edit: is cannibalism evil?

"Cannibalism" talks about what you eat, not how the food was acquired, so there's not enough information to fully answer the question.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Only if they don't ask, or care, why.

Careful there, sparky.

Anyway...

Soldiers fall under the same heading as adventurers and assassins, if you want to be serious about it. The definition of good and evil should be applied to their life outside of the battlefield, how they treat prisoners, how they comport themselves according to the rules of battle that exist at the time.

A soldier who rapes women of defeated settlements, kills those who surrender, desecrates the bodies of foes, slaughters non-combatants to put fear into the survivors, loots the dead of both sides, and takes joy in inflicting pain and suffering is undoubtably evil.

Another who takes the time to ensure that there is as few innocents in the way as possible, makes sure that prisoners are well treated, insists that the dead are at least burned with honor, ensures that personal possessions from fallen foes are returned to surviving family members, is willing to parlay before, during, and after the battle, provides medical care to the enemy wounded, and just fights without active hatred because it is his job is undoubtably well on the good side.

Whether or not they care about the reasons has little to do with whether or not they are evil. Their intent and actions are what defines them as good and evil.

An assassin who tracks down evil being with a writ of absolution from the church in his quarters, making sure that no innocents are harmed, would qualify as Lawful Good. He obeys the laws of his church and god, and kills only those who are beyond redemption (And face it, in D&D it is entirely possible that a soul could be so corrupt that redemption is impossible, or just slaying the demon driven husk of a once good person) only when the church has given permission/orders for the death.


It's a little trickier than some seem to think, applying good and evil to killing other beings. If you follow some of the restrictions in this thread, adventurer's are nuetral evil at best, chaotic evil animals at worst.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The assassin is a specific PrC that is evil.

This doesn't mean that all assassins are evil.

The PrC called "Assassin" in the DMG is evil.