three new turning ideas

[evilbob]

I've always had a problem with turning in D&D. First, it uses a weird and archaic mechanic that makes no sense and has nothing to do with the rest of the game. Second, I completely detest the idea of the undead simply "running away." There's very little to stop (non-mindless) undead from coming right back at you a minute later, and even mindless undead can return if commanded or at least they tend to pop up again soon enough as you continue to explore the rest of the area. (And since they are typically in an enclosed area, this happens a lot.) In the end, the cleric helps briefly by making a single encounter easier for one minute, which is good - but ultimately the efforts are more or less futile.

Furthermore, I was rather unhappy with the variant rule in the Complete Divine, which for one didn't seem really worth it (a will-based save against undead that does 1d6 damage/level means that most undead, with their very high will scores, will take an average of 1.25 damage per cleric level), and for two completely shafted any evil clerics by removing their ability to rebuke or command anything. Not to mention that it also ignored greater turning as well. So, overall, it fails.

In my musing to try to build a better undead-turning mousetrap, I've found three different schools of thought. Each has its merrits and its drawbacks. Please feel free to comment and question each one.


1. Turned Undead Don't Run
Turning undead functions as rebuking undead - that is, undead cower instead of fleeing. If the turning cleric attacks a turned undead within 10’, the turned undead overcomes the effect.

Advantages: Simple, easy, no new rules. Fixes the main problem, seemingly no overall balance issues.
Disadvantages: Does not fix the other problem of the turning mechanic. Arguably a slight boost to good clerics.


2. Turning Destroys Undead
Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level + Cha bonus (if positive) to all undead within 30’ of the cleric with line of effect. Affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + cleric’s level + Cha modifier) for half damage. Evil clerics heal undead the same amount instead, or they may chose to have all undead that fail their will save cower for 1 minute. Undead with turn resistance subtract 3 x their resistance bonus from the total damage, or add half their turn resistance to their will save to avoid being affected by evil clerics. (Turn resistance does not apply to evil clerics healing them.) Incorporeal creatures do not get a 50% miss chance against this damage. Undead that are taken below zero hit points are destroyed. The Sun domain power Greater Turning does double damage (2d6/level + 2 x Cha bonus). If a good cleric has at least twice as many levels as an undead creature has hit dice and the undead creature fails its will save, it is destroyed. If the cleric is evil, it is commanded. Undead with turn resistance add this number to their effective level to determine if they are destroyed or commanded. Feats that increase a cleric’s effective turning level function normally, and increase both the save DC and the damage as appropriate for a higher level cleric. Feats that affect a cleric’s turning damage are applied to the damage, only. (Or, possibly: increase the range of the effect.)

Advantages: Better, simpler, and more comprehensive than the Complete Divine variant rule (at least in my opinion!). Fixes both major problems with turning (nothing runs and the system is much closer to the rest of D&D), while at the same time keeping the majority of the mechanic in tact (evil can still command, rebuke; greater turning does something).
Disadvantages: The will save DC is extremely hard to balance. 1/2 the cleric's level + Cha means that most undead will pass it, but the full cleric's level + Cha is a weird mechanic that is not used in most places. Evil clerics lose some ground to good clerics with this one, because they have more options but the ability to rebuke or command is less guarenteed. At the same time, evil undead clerics got a boost. Also, possibly a bit powerful when undead are destroyed at zero HP, as it gives the cleric another way to kill vampires. And lastly, there are a few feats that don't "translate" well to this system. Empowered Turning (CD) is one that isn't written well for this system and would require a rewrite. Others probably exist. The more that changes, the more it effects other material that would also need to be changed.


3. Turning is a Will Save
Turning undead is a standard action that affects all undead within 30’ of the cleric with line of effect. Affected undead must roll a Will save (DC 10 + cleric’s level + Cha modifier) or cower before the cleric for 1 minute. Undead with turn resistance may add half their turn resistance to their will save. Incorporeal creatures do not get a 50% miss chance against this effect. If a good cleric has at least twice as many levels as an undead creature has hit dice and the undead creature fails its will save, it is destroyed. If the cleric is evil, the undead creature is commanded. Undead with turn resistance add this number to their effective hit die as normal to avoid these effects. The Sun domain power Greater Turning adds 2 to the DC of the will save and all undead that fail their save are destroyed. Feats or abilities that affect a cleric's turn check instead raise the DC of the will save. Feats or abilities that affect a cleric's turning damage instead increase the range of the effect.

Advantages: Forgoes the direct damage for a mechanic extremely similar to the existing one for turning undead (or at least, extremely similar to option 1 above). Simple, comprehensive, fixes both major problems.
Disadvantages: All the disadvantages from option 1. Also requires a rewrite of the existing feats/abilities/etc. that affect turning. Still hard to balance the save DC.

 

[CleverNickName]

I've always had a problem with turning in D&D.

I agree, the turning mechanic could use a good rebuilding. I've been working on a way to fix it, also...perhaps we can compare notes?

No. 1: I would prefer this option to the traditional version, but you are right...it still uses the same mechanics I'm trying to get away from.

No. 2: This is very similar to the version that we are currently using until I can come up with something better. We do Greater Turning attempts differently, however. IMC, a greater turning is a Maximized turn undead attempt. It's okay, I guess, but I'm still not satisfied.

No. 3: If I were going to do this, the save DC would probably be (10 + 1/2 cleric level + cleric's Cha modifier), and all of a creature's turn resistance would be a bonus to the save throw. But other than that, it looks okay to me.

My current plan: making Turn Undead a spell. This removes the Turn Undead ability altogether, and forces it to use the same mechanics that spells use.
[SBLOCK=Rough Draft of New Spells: ]
Turn Undead
Evocation [Good]
Level: Clr1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 20-ft. radius burst
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No

All affected undead become panicked for 1 round per cleric level.


Destroy Undead
Evocation [Good]
Level: Clr2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 20-ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates a burst of positive energy centered on the caster, that deals 1d6 points of damage per 2 cleric levels (max 10d6) to all undead within the area of effect.


Rebuke Undead
Evocation [Evil]
Level: Clr1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 20-ft. radius emanation
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: No

All affected undead cower in awe of the cleric. The effect lasts for 1 round per cleric level.


Command Undead
As the sorcerer spell of the same name, only now it is a Clr 2 [Evil] spell.


Control Undead
As the sorcerer spell of the same name, only now it is a Clr 6 [Evil] spell.


Bolster Undead
Evocation [Evil]
Level: Clr1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Area: 20-ft. radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No

This spell creates a burst of negative energy centered on the caster, that grants 1 temporary hit point per cleric level (max 20) to all undead within the area of effect. These temporary hit points last for 1 round per cleric level.[/SBLOCK]Of course, it's not without its own problems. For one, it nerfs clerics by forcing them to use up their spell slots to turn the undead. It invites abuse potential by allowing metamagic and item creation feats to come into play, and diminishes the role of a cleric in the game (a wand of destroy undead and a wand of cure wounds in the hands of a bard, for example, eliminates the need for a cleric at all.)

Anyway, good luck on your rebuild. Let me know what you go with, and how well it works.

 

[hong]

How about

4) Turning deals Charisma damage to undead, 1d6 points + 1 per Cha bonus of the cleric. A Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Cha mod; add turn resistance as a bonus to the roll) negates the damage if the undead has more HD than the cleric, halves it if equal or lower. Being reduced to 0 Cha destroys the undead. A successful save means that undead is immune to further turning attempts of yours for the day.

Advantages: restores the balance with turning; IMO skeletons and zombies, no matter how big, should be the ones most susceptible to turning. The iconic species (vamps, liches, etc) should be the ones that are least affected.

Disadvantages: makes giant-sized zombies and skeletons perhaps a bit _too_ easy to destroy. Won't slow down undead that don't use Cha (are there any, besides skeletons/zombies?). Like all stat-modifying mechanics, can trigger recalculating (lost spells, some undead add their Cha bonus to hp). Lich wizards who made Cha their dump stat are boned (HAW HAW!).

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I like number 2 the best because it's really just the CD variant, with all the fine print that they didn't have room for in the book. I hadn't thought of the 'double cleric levels to undead HD = destoyed/controlled' and I like it! Personally, I'd use CR rather than HD but that's because I have a personal beef with HD being used for everything in D&D.

 

[Arkhandus]

Errrm, undead are immune to ability damage. :\

 

[hong]

Errrm, undead are immune to ability damage. :\

Undead are immune to ability _drain_. They are also immune to damage to physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con).

 

[evilbob]

No. 1: I would prefer this option to the traditional version, but you are right...it still uses the same mechanics I'm trying to get away from.

Yeah, this one is so easy to do but it just doesn't fix enough.

No. 2: This is very similar to the version that we are currently using until I can come up with something better. We do Greater Turning attempts differently, however. IMC, a greater turning is a Maximized turn undead attempt.

That's an interesting thought: maximized. It would be much more powerful than x2, and more powerful overall especially given that the Radiant Servant of Pelor PrC is so prevalent and it gives tons of greater turning for just 1 level dip. However, it's much closer to the intent of greater turning, I believe.

No. 3: If I were going to do this, the save DC would probably be (10 + 1/2 cleric level + cleric's Cha modifier), and all of a creature's turn resistance would be a bonus to the save throw. But other than that, it looks okay to me.

The problem again is that 1/2 cleric level will saves for undead are easy, and if you allow a full turn resistance bonus to their save, it becomes trivial. Very few turn-resistant undead will ever be affected, even when the cleric is a much higher level than their CR. Generally speaking, turning undead with turn resistance should be very difficult at the correct CR, but somewhat easy 3 or 4 levels above the CR. Good saves are (base) 1/2 level +2, so adding 4 to a save is HUGE.

My current plan: making Turn Undead a spell. This removes the Turn Undead ability altogether, and forces it to use the same mechanics that spells use.

I must admit, that's the one mechanic I have no desire to even flesh out. I am completely against making turns into spells for all the reasons you've listed. I know a lot of folks on these boards think that clerics (and druids) are overpowered, but this is far too big of a hit.

4) Turning deals Charisma damage to undead

Interesting, but far less useful than direct damage or cowering undead. Essentially, you're either going to do enough Cha damage to turn them into an object, or you won't. That means multiple turns with no appreciable effect, followed by one big bang. I'd rather have something that scaled a little better, like damage or cowering.

Personally, I'd use CR rather than HD but that's because I have a personal beef with HD being used for everything in D&D.

I think that's a good idea, but it is certainly very different than most other mechanics. It would probably be more "even" overall, however, since low CR undead tend to have tons of HD (far more than their CR) and high CR undead tend to have fewer (thus requiring turn resistance). But then you get into the issue of "what to do for fractional CR" and stuff like that. HD is simpler, even if it is less effective.


Actually, these comments have given me an idea: what if we take 2. above and change it so that the DC is 10 + 1/2 the cleric's level + 2 + Cha. That would make it so that the contest was really between the cleric's Cha and the Undead's bonus to Will, which seems good. On the other hand, this is still slightly problematic due to the fact that most undead have more HD than CR, and the ones who are even close to even all have turn resistance. (In fact, that seems to be a requirement for making an undead creature: if HD is close to CR, +2 turn resist; if HD < CR, +4.)

Also, of course, if you're just going for the +2 thing, why not just make it a synergy bonus from Knowledge(religion) like it is now? That skill is a cleric mainstay, but it basically means that those who take it can turn, and those who don't will have a really hard time turning.


What if 2. were re-written thusly:
Turning undead is a standard action that deals 1d6 damage/cleric level + Cha modifier to all undead within 30’ of the cleric with line of effect. Affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 cleric’s level + Cha modifier) for half damage. Evil clerics heal undead the same amount instead, or they may chose to rebuke undead, which causes all undead that fail their will save to cower for 1 minute. Incorporeal creatures do not get a 50% miss chance against this damage. The Sun domain power Greater Turning causes any undead that fail their will save to be destroyed.
If a good cleric has at least twice as many cleric levels as an undead creature has hit dice and the undead creature fails its will save, it is destroyed. Evil clerics chosing to rebuke undead who have twice as many cleric levels as an undead instead command it on a failed save. (See rules for commanding undead for more details and limits.)
Undead with turn resistance add half their turn resistance bonus to their Will saves against turning or rebuking attempts, and subtract twice their turn resistance from the damage they take (evil clerics' healing attempts are not reduced). They also add their turn resistance to their effective number of HD to determine if they are destroyed or commanded.
Abilties or items that affect a cleric’s effective turning level function normally, and increase both the save DC and the damage as appropriate for a higher level cleric. Abilties or items that affect a cleric’s turning damage are applied to the damage, as normal.
Special: 5 ranks in Knowledge(religion) gives a +2 synergy bonus to the DC of the cleric's turn attempt.

Advantages: Much closer to the existing system; everything works along standard D&D lines. And if you just leave out the line about "destroying" things with zero HP on a normal turn, you fix the whole "vampires can still escape" clause!
Disadvantages: Greater Turning should either be a "save or die" or do max damage. I'm still not sure which, but I'm afraid "save or die" might be too much (although technically now it is like a save or die, and the range is being halved). Turn resistance is still a hard one to balance. I'm still not sure if it should increase their ability to save or just reduce damage, or if it should be both. The problem is that it almost has to increase their will save, or else Greater Turning can kill things too easily. And it should also reduce their damage, since they're going to take damage no matter what. Tricky and hard to balance.


Thanks for the comments! Keep 'em coming.

 

[evilbob]

I remembered the other problem I have with the CD rule: undead have d12s for HD.

This means they're averaging 6.5 HP per HD (and most undead have more HD than their CR). Turning as damage does 1d6/level, or avg. 3.5. And if saved against, 1.25. That just doesn't seem like a lot of damage: just over half at best, and under a fifth at worst.

I added + Cha to the numbers above, which helps a bit at low levels and doesn't do much at high levels. I can't tell if the intent behind the turning damage thing was to honestly make clerics use two to five turns to kill a group of undead, or if they just didn't think about how the damage at level compared to undead HP. Or maybe the "at least this does something even if they fail their save" idea helps to balance all this out. Or maybe the point is that your party is doing damage too, so spending one or two turns per encounter would probably be enough to make a huge impact, and that's good enough.

I think I'd almost rather have it closer to the "all or nothing" way, although I'm not sure. Perhaps change the damage to 1d12 / level, with no damage on a save. Other thoughts?

 

[StGabe]

I've always had a problem with turning in D&D.

I agree. However, IMO, the solution is to get rid of it. I don't think it's fun, gamewise, to have an ability that is very powerful but only against 1/10th of the content and I don't think the ability is that interesting from a flavor standpoint either. I.e. maybe *a* cleric variant should have turn undead but it's not clear why all clerics should have it.

 

[Nyeshet]

Personally, I tend to think that Turning should be lessened rather than removed. At present only the Cleric (which is already powerful enough) and the Paladin typically have access to the ability. What if it were returned to its roots?

The whole turn undead motif came about from the belief that vampires could not approach a holy symbol wielded by one with strong faith - usually / especially a cleric. This was expanded to all undead eventually (ignoring, ironically enough, that fae were also supposedly repelled by holy symbols, places, etc).

So what if it were restored to its original form, namely that undead (and perhaps fae, ethereal / incorporeal creatures, and perhaps outsiders of opposite alignment) could not approach within 15 feet of a cleric wielding a holy symbol as a full round action. They are not harmed by the symbol, but they cannot approach any nearer. Those the cleric may wish to protect would have to stand within 10 feet of the cleric, as any farther and the undead, etc could attack them. So the undead, etc wander around the cleric's radius attacking those easier to reach, but the cleric himself is safe. In some ways it would act like the Sanctuary spell. So long as the cleric is doing nothing but Turning he is safe.

Hmm, the creatures could make a will save to attempt to bypass the barrier - and whether they succeeded or not they would need to make a new will save each round they attempted to bypass it. Success by less than 5 would allow them to approach within 5 ft of the cleric (cancelling the protection those standing near the cleric might otherwise have due to being near him), and success by more than 5 would allow the undead, etc to act as if the protection were not present (for the succeeding undead, etc) until the clerics next initiative.

Perhaps the could move at his base speed (typically around 30 ft a round) with the distance of protection diminishing to 10 ft (and those seeking his protection having to be within 5 feet of the cleric - and subject to attacks by creatures with reach weapons, natural or artificial). However, if he approached an undead, etc, then the creature would gain a +4 to their will save to resist the aura (effectively what this is). So the cleric could, in movie / story style, move about the room with those seeking shelter huddling against him, weaving around the undead as they sought an exit.

A non-cleric could take a feat (Conviction, or some such) to have access to the same ability.


The idea needs more work, I admit, as I am simply brainstorming at the moment. The general idea is that turning causes no harm - merely limits approach similar to the sanctuary spell. Creatures it works against (perhaps more than merely undead) could make will saves to approach anyway, and they would gain a bonus to their save if the cleric is purposefully moving towards him. Those protected by nearness to the cleric would be at risk if they walked beyond the reach of the aura or attacked, etc. Ranged attacks could still be made as normal against the cleric, and if he took damage he would need to make a concentration check to keep the effect going. Perhaps he would need to make a concentration check to initiate the effect and again each round to keep it going. If so, then the Will save would be against this concentration check - giving the cleric a bit of an advantage, as skills increase faster than saves. So even higher level undead would have a hard time working against it - except that perhaps they could gain their current Turn resistance as a bonus against this will save (and maybe their charisma as well?). The effect weakens (in distance it reaches, perhaps also in the save necessary to bypass it?) when the cleric is moving.

All in all, the idea is in its infancy, but I think it has some promise.


The main thing it does not do is deal with Rebuking undead - particularly in the form of commanding undead. On the other hand, if it deals with more than undead, then it would still be useful to evil clerics. It might work against fae, undead, and outsiders of opposing alignments, with domain abilities expanding this to elementals of a given type, vermin, animals, plants, etc. Perhaps feats could empower this - such that instead of merely holding them at bay, instead they do not see / hear those thus protected, cower instead of stay back, etc. All sorts of ideas come to mind. As for rebuking, that could be a domain ability, or perhaps those undead, etc that fail by more than 5 or 10 are subject to any Suggestion that encourages them to leave the area or seek another target? Again, this is merely brainstorming on my part.