Tiers of play

[ZickZak]

Hello,
we play the way that we set level and we dont level since. Currently we ve been playing 12th level in 4e for 5 years.

We play roughly on "Aragorn" level. We are known in lands where we come from and the important people know us all around the continent.

We have been thinking if we are on an appropriate level. We play in LotR world, so no planes travel, no magic weapons, very few if any wizards...

What lvl do you think appropriate?

 

[Morrus]

Are you asking what level Aragorn would be?

 

[ZickZak]

Well, sure. Why not.

But I m mostly interested in Tiers of Play. I saw a description somewhere for 5e, but cant find one for 4e.
It said something like Level X to Level Y - "You begin to travel to different planes now..." etc.
So I was wondering if there is a description like that somewhere for 4e.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It's pretty similar. There's only three "official" tiers, heroic, paragon, and epic. At paragon level you can go into the Underdark (most Underdark monsters are paragon level) and start visiting other planes (you can jump to most planes around 14th to 18th level, but there are "crossing" rituals that let you visit the Feywild and the Shadowfell at 4th to 6th level).

I think LotR would be mainly a heroic level world. Only a very few characters, such as Sauron, would be even paragon level. Aragorn would probably be a high heroic warlord multiclassed with ranger. He seems to have the Delay Affliction ritual, which is 6th-level, but could potentially take it at 4th-level with an appropriate feat.

D&D equates character level with combat prowess, which can cause an odd disconnect at times. Elrond is a great healer, so presumably high level, but he's not a badass in a fight. He's not a pacifist healer either (he did take part in battles in the past). I think the best fix is to make him low level, but give him a custom immovable item that really boosts his Remove Affliction and let him raise floods, etc. The item could literally be the magic "soaking" the land of Rivendell (an intangible magical field). Since it can't move, he isn't going to adventure. People bring their wounded to him instead... which is exactly what happened in the books.

So what would we do with Arwen? I'm not sure she's high level either. I think she's just a Noldor with a few more character levels than most, plus a royal bloodline.

 

[Grogg of the North]

Not quite what you're asking for but I've seen a few arguments that Middle Earth and E6 for 3.5 make a good match.

 

[Sunseeker]

Well, sure. Why not.

But I m mostly interested in Tiers of Play. I saw a description somewhere for 5e, but cant find one for 4e.
It said something like Level X to Level Y - "You begin to travel to different planes now..." etc.
So I was wondering if there is a description like that somewhere for 4e.

Pardon me if I'm blunt, but the "teirs" of play in 4e is pretty hard-coded into the game, I'm not sure how you can miss it.
Heroic Tier is 1-10. Paragon Tier is 11-20. Epic Tier is 21-30. Ya know, ties right into when you get your Class, your Paragon Path and your Epic Destiny.

Personally though, I think 12 is way too high for a LOTR-esque low-magic setting. Aside from the fact that you'll never see any real benefit from your Paragon Paths as many of their effects come into play at 15+, you'll really just have a lot of powers that aren't going to fit with a largely martial, low-magic world. I'd say that LOTR is largely a Heroic Tier setting. Most of the characters, even the great warriors, are going to be somewhere between 5 and 8. There will be a few "mortal men" above them, the truly legendary heroes, who are level 10. People like Gandalf are exceptions, not the rule. Foes like the Nazgul are magically-enhanced enemies, probably sitting at 12-15. Mortals who were the top of their game, 8-10 in life and have since seen magical enhancement up a few levels. The greatest of Elves probably rank in here too. Creatures like Sauron are of course, Epic foes because they are quite literally, gods. They are high-magic entities in a low-magic setting, sort of like rolling a tank into classical Rome.

Quite frankly the vast majority of characters in the world aren't going to ever see level 5. I wouldn't even wager that Boromir is level 5, at least not by 4E standards. I doubt many of the major characters in LOTR even have classes. At level 12, I think a 4E party could readily trounce all but a few of the major players in LOTR, and they'd only lose to them if those major players teamed up against the party.

 

[pemerton]

We play roughly on "Aragorn" level. We are known in lands where we come from and the important people know us all around the continent.

We have been thinking if we are on an appropriate level. We play in LotR world, so no planes travel, no magic weapons, very few if any wizards...

What lvl do you think appropriate?

Let's assume that Aragorn is modelled along the lines of some sort of warlord/paladin/ranger combo.

If we use the default 4e Monster Manual, at 12th level such a character can take on a pretty good number of orcs in melee (whether modelled as minions, or as a swarm), and probably a cave troll (there are "standard" monster ogres of levels 8 through 15 listed in the Compendium, and ogre minions from 11th through 18th level). That's probably a fair, or slightly generous, representation of Aragorn's combat expertise.

His buffing and healing will be good but not ludicrously good.

I've played a game with a 12th level paladin (paragon path - Knight Commander) and the general feel was at the stronger end of what Aragorn might do - a clear superiority to ordinary soldiers, and a dominating presence on the battlefield, but not superhuman.

I think that 6th level is too low for Aragorn in default 4e - there are quite a few orcs who would give a 6th level 4e character a run for his/her money, which I don't think is true to the fiction as far as Aragorn is concerned.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well, sure. Why not.

Aragorn obviously should have been 5th level, just like Gandalf.

(I actually did write up parody versions of the fellowship in 1e AD&D, 3.5, and 4e a number of years ago for a convention, and I did make them all 5th level. Sorta. The 1e Gandalf (Vancegulf Mythraindeer) was a '5th level magic-user' - and a human 'character with two classes' who had formerly been a 9th level fighter, and he had 1e psionics enough to demolish a Type VI demon. The 3.5 Gandalf was a 5th level wizard... half-celestial (ECL +5). Oh, both with a Staff of the Magi and Ring of Fire Elemental Command, of course. )

But I m mostly interested in Tiers of Play. I saw a description somewhere for 5e, but cant find one for 4e.
It said something like Level X to Level Y - "You begin to travel to different planes now..." etc.
So I was wondering if there is a description like that somewhere for 4e.

4e went on and on about the Tiers. In the PH and both DMGs, IIRC. The DMG2 focused some on running Paragon Tier so definitely check that out - sadly there was never a DMG3 to deliver Epic Tier ideas.

For a low-ish magic LotR-inspired campaign, Paragon would probably be appropriate, at least later, as the scope becomes pretty earth-shaking by the end. Mechanics in 4e, even level, aren't as tightly coupled to fluff or concepts as in other editions, so, for instance, the fact that Sam & Frodo have just been hanging out in the peaceful Shire their whole lives, while 'Strider,' when introduced, has already had a whole long story-arc of his own, needn't mean that the former two must be 1st level and the later a 'name level' Ranger (9th? 8th? I forget).
You can gloss over magic items or just turn on inherent bonuses.

 

[MwaO]

I think there is probably some leveling involved in a LotR-type setting. Some of the initial combats in Fellowship to the Return of the King show some greatly increased combat prowess. And usually fun to pick up an extra choice or three.

I'd probably go from levels 5 to 13 in such a campaign. Given your game has lasted 4 years, say a level per year. Just represents that picking up a few skills, expanding the number of potential opponents.

It also gives an opportunity to recognize that certain enemies are simply not beatable. No group of 10th level PCs is going to defeat a Pit Fiend aka Balrog or Abhorrent Reaper aka Nazgul(rewritten to be a Solo at lower level). But an army+the PCs might put a dent into a Nazgul at 13th. And escaping a Balrog makes for a good skill challenge...