Time for some Black Pages?

[Styracosaurus]

For 3e, Eric Noah put out the infamous 'Black Pages' that outlined all the new iterative attacks, BAB progression, Saves, Special abilities for the 3e classes,......and they rocked. So, I'm ready for the 4e versions. There has to be at least one class that WotC has finished up except for minor tweaking.

Does the fighter gain +1 BAB/Level? What about defense bonus or Armor values? One feat/level? Manuevers? Stances? How about an example of an 8th level fighter for us to tear apart and evaluate?

I do not enjoy the various blogs that discuss how wonderfully fun the playtests have been. I want meat and potatoes.

John

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I do not enjoy the various blogs that discuss how wonderfully fun the playtests have been. I want meat and potatoes.

With you on that entirely. Corporate policies and NDAs seem to be the source of at least some of this, but that doesn't make it any more palatable.

After sitting out most of 2e in favor of WW, I came back for 3e because they showed me the game had been radically improved. Whether this is the result of a marketing decision, some larger corporate policy of Hasbro, or the influence of the corporate lawyers I have nothing but disdain for it.

I read these designer blogs and I see nothing of substance. They flitter about with claims of "this will be so great" and "it will be so much more streamlined." But I see nothing there to back it up. So far I like 3e and I've been able to do the things I've wanted, it's the most flexible game system I've ever encountered. Yet I keep seeing derogatory comments aimed at 3e and repeated assertions the new edition will be far better, and that's it. Just PR hype with no information that might give us the ability to actually evaluate whether the new edition is something we'll want to buy into. Every time they do this it reduces the credibility of the designer's in my eyes.

 

[Intrope]

Very little of the info Eric posted was released in the first month! At this point in the 3e run-up we really didn't have much info, only speculations and tidbits.

I don't expect you'll get all of the hard data you want until 2008 at the earliest (with the preview releases in Dec/Jan). Patience! May will arrive on schedule

 

[Stalker0]

I don't expect you'll get all of the hard data you want until 2008 at the earliest (with the preview releases in Dec/Jan). Patience! May will arrive on schedule

No kidding, guys the game is still almost a year away, give them some time!!

 

[Styracosaurus]

This is not a rant

I'm not sure how early the Black Pages showed up, but it was at least nine months prior to the 3e PHB. Also, the Black Pages grew over that nine months as more information "leaked". The 4e advertisement started out strong, but seems to be getting too fluffy for my taste.

John

 

[EricNoah]

You gotta keep in mind that a lot of that early stuff was highly speculative. There was a document floating around the 'net that was bascially a guy' assumptions and house rules. We didn't know how saving throws worked for a long, long time (paritcularly how to set DCs for spells).

In addition, I don't get the impression that the core of the game is changing all that much this time -- it will still be a d20 game. Some procedures will be different, and some of the math will be, too. I think showing us "pieces" of that out of context would not be particularly helpful at an early stage.

If I look back at the archives for Aug-Oct 1999, the numerical tidbits had to do with spell durations (because of going from a 1-min round to a 6-sec round), the concept of critical "threat ranges" (a new thing for D&D), armor class (different numbering system), an incorrect/speculative chart showing ability score modifiers, an official preview of two new "stats" for armor (max dex and skill check penalty).

 

[Morrus]

If I look back at the archives for Aug-Oct 1999, the numerical tidbits had to do with spell durations (because of going from a 1-min round to a 6-sec round), the concept of critical "threat ranges" (a new thing for D&D), armor class (different numbering system), an incorrect/speculative chart showing ability score modifiers, an official preview of two new "stats" for armor (max dex and skill check penalty).

Yup. For the same period, I think we've gotten similar amounts of information. We know to look to Saga for static defenses/saves, we know spell levels equal character levels, we know pretty much that crits don't require a confirm and have effects, we know that all classes will have at will/per encounter/per day abilities, we know races have traits similar to class abilities which increase as you gain levels (and some of the names of these traits), we know CR has been replaced with static XP awards, and that adding these up creates an encounter, we kow about wizardly implements, we know magic item creation does not require XP, we have some names of wizard attack abilities, warlord buff abilities, we know about monster roles, we know about new definitions of demons and deveils, we know loads about the default cosmology, we know action points are core, we know certain abilities are accessed at different levels of HP loss, we know saves vs. massive damage cause day-long negative effects but not death, we kow you can fall on someone to cause damage, we know the full atatck option is gone, we know social encounters require multiple skill checks of varous kinds, we know certain skill types such as spot and listen are now static scores to be beaten, we know tons of info about the D&D Insider tools...

And I've only scaratched the surface. Much more, and WotC may as well just send everyone a free PHB!

4E isn't different enough to 3E that they need to say so much specifically - yeah, they could post something about how a skill DC works, and we'll all say "yeah... we knew that"; or tell us what BAB is, or a million other things. But there's no point - the type of information available for 3E was different: the underlying structure was being changed and previewed; here, it's the same underlying structure.

People HAVE a massive preview of 4E - it's called 3E; or "the d20 system". There's only so much they can say without just handing out the game!

 

[Styracosaurus]

Maybe it was all speculation, but the year before 3e was released was a lot of fun on my end.

I definitely don't want the designers to spill the beans and give out a lot of information. I just want real tidbits to help fuel the fire. I'm excited/hopeful that 4e will be great.

In all fairness, there has been a few tasty bits such as a critical hit with a Fireball. There is just too much hype from the blogs. If you keep telling me how great a product is....well, it makes me think that you're overcompensating.

What I want is probably not possible because we haven't had ten years of 2e to set the stage for a new edition. 3e was like Christmas for a five year old.

Patience is for Jedi, and we all know that Sith are more fun.

John

 

[Styracosaurus]

People HAVE a massive preview of 4E - it's called 3E; or "the d20 system". There's only so much they can say without just handing out the game!

Hey, there is no need to be logical.

John

 

[Nifft]

People HAVE a massive preview of 4E - it's called 3E; or "the d20 system". There's only so much they can say without just handing out the game!

Are you saying that like it's a bad thing?

, -- N