times they are a changen....

[TiQuinn]

And with this change . . . maybe that party storming the Temple would actually have a realistic chance.

Yeah, they have a realistic chance of standing against a spellcaster who uses Commune, Scry and Teleport, etc. But what about all the other spells in his spellbook?

What if he drops a Forcecage on them, and follows up with an array of Fireballs, Cloudkills, and Cones of Cold?

What if instead of Scrying, he just has spies throughout the area reporting on activity?

The problem isn't the spells themselves...it's do you really want to roleplay a powerful, evil spellcaster as a true genius who doesn't act like a villain from James Bond? Your answer is change the rules....but all that does is make the villain think of other insidious ways to find out the party's location.

 

[Forrester]

The problem isn't the spells themselves...it's do you really want to roleplay a powerful, evil spellcaster as a true genius who doesn't act like a villain from James Bond? Your answer is change the rules....but all that does is make the villain think of other insidious ways to find out the party's location.

The thing is that Scry/Teleport is sooooo EASY! The Bad Guy will at least have to work for his dinner if he can't use that particular dumb combo.

I've also changed my campaign to make it that it's just about impossible to Scry someone that you don't have at least SOME connection with. None of this "I've vaguely heard of this Chumley character, let me apply my 20 Int and 14 ranks in Scry to automatically determine where he is and what he's doing" nonsense. You know . . . Law of Correspondence stuff.

 

[TiQuinn]

Hey, TiQuinn, come here. No, really. Come here. No, no, over here next to me.

*smack!*

Durn cheek.

But I don't understand?! A Ring of Counterspells only costs 4,000 gold pieces! And it only costs another 1600 gold pieces to get the spell cast! A pittance! What's the problem here!

That's it......all my characters are going to have them now. Just in case. Cause ya know....those evil genius spellcasters are everywhere. And they're watching.....oh, yesssss, they're watching, all right......and it's ME that they're watching.

Ok. I'll stop now.

 

[TiQuinn]

The thing is that Scry/Teleport is sooooo EASY! The Bad Guy will at least have to work for his dinner if he can't use that particular dumb combo.

I've also changed my campaign to make it that it's just about impossible to Scry someone that you don't have at least SOME connection with. None of this "I've vaguely heard of this Chumley character, let me apply my 20 Int and 14 ranks in Scry to automatically determine where he is and what he's doing" nonsense. You know . . . Law of Correspondence stuff.

That's fine, AFAIC! I just think that an genius level intellect is going to find other ways to get the PCs. It comes down to this: Without suspension of disbelief, a party of mid-level characters going up against a genius high-level spellcaster with a lot of resources at his disposal is going to be toast.

 

[Ristamar]

I'd have to agree with TiQuinn. If a party continues meddling in some high-powered NPC's business, it doesn't matter if the NPC(s) can scry and commune and teleport. If you play things 'logically' and 'realistically' (arguably both oxymorons in a fantasy world), the party has a little chance of survival, with or without the divinations and teleportations considering the villains' vast resources and ingenuity.

Of course, none of that makes for good roleplaying/storytelling. PC's continually face impossible odds. They're called impossible odds because they are virtually impossible to overcome. These odds are faced again and again over the entire career of a typical adventurer. Snipping the strings on a few select spells would likely make little difference in the long run. Should logic prevail, all PC's that try to bite off more than they can chew (which is about every D&D PC in existence) should die, both swiftly and horrribly. But they don't because that doesn't make for a fun game.

 

[TiQuinn]

Of course, none of that makes for good roleplaying/storytelling. PC's continually face impossible odds. They're called impossible odds because they are virtually impossible to overcome.

Heh, that's the funny thing about impossible odds.

Whenever that term is used in books and movies, usually they get overcome anyways!

 

[Ristamar]

Heh, that's the funny thing about impossible odds.

Whenever that term is used in books and movies, usually they get overcome anyways!

True 'dat.

 

[Falcmir]

The simple reason why a high level spell caster wont destroy low level parties for kicks is that it does put himself or his plots at risk. You can say that using up a few spells is not going to inconvenience him much but if his arch enemy is watching and attacks after he's used up those few spells he's made himself that much more vulnerable. There's also the possibility that the forces of good may not know he's at work in the area, and may even have sent the low level party to scout him out. If he shows up he may bring more powerful foes down on himself.

It's easy to say that a high level mage can destroy any low level foes that oppose him but there are plenty of campaign or story based reasons why he wouldnt.

 

[barsoomcore]

Without suspension of disbelief, a party of mid-level characters going up against a genius high-level spellcaster with a lot of resources at his disposal is going to be toast.

Why do they have to be "going up against"? You can make a pretty cogent argument that high-level spellcasters will make a point of looking for potential threats and eliminating them post-haste. No fuss, no muss, and you sleep better at night.

Of course, that's not necessarily all that much FUN, and I do believe one ought to design for fun when designing a campaign. But there's a definite problem here that few campaign settings make any effort to address.

 

[TiQuinn]

Of course, that's not necessarily all that much FUN, and I do believe one ought to design for fun when designing a campaign. But there's a definite problem here that few campaign settings make any effort to address.

Ah, but that's where I don't agree.....I don't see this as a problem! In fact, it's a requirement that the good guys be able to interfere with the plans of the bad guys for pretty much every game setting.

Here's another logic problem: Exactly how many high level spellcasters would this campaign setting really have? How did they ever get to be high level without ticking off some OTHER powerful wizard or cleric who would decide to end this upstarts rise to glory? And what's high level now? In a realistic world, anyone with the ability to become invisible is going to be incredibly powerful and probably rich to boot. And that's a second level spell.

This seems like a problem that could just keep spiraling further and further downwards until you reach the point where you decide it's not worth playing in that campaign due to short life spans of characters. Huh, kinda sounds like Call of Cthuulu.