times they are a changen....

[barsoomcore]

It's easy to say that a high level mage can destroy any low level foes that oppose him but there are plenty of campaign or story based reasons why he wouldnt.

Well, no, not really. There may be SOME, but like I say, I see very few settings that offer any.

Sure, IF his arch enemy is watching he'll be pretty careful. Paranoia, as you noted, is a necessary component to survival in the high-level game. Which makes it difficult for GOOD characters to survive to be high level.

Of course, a campaign where there actually are GOOD gods running about is easier to justify since even a 20th-level wizard will think twice before attracting the wrath of any god. So your basic D&D world perhaps doesn't have this problem -- the good gods take care of things for everyone by enforcing a moral code.

The problem for me is where do high-powered GOOD beings come from? Of course, you can just say, "Oh, la la, the gods come into being for no reason and some of them are good, la la."

*yawn*

I'm much more interested in the question of what would happen to human society in a world much like ours (where basic cosmological questions don't have answers) where people gained access to the kind of power that D&D wizards have? I believe it would shatter human society and lead to no end of suffering and horror as the rules of engagement basically led to only the worst of the bunch getting ahead. Since they would have no restrictions on their behaviour (unlike politicians or other leaders in our world, who are constrained by public opinion and the social construct that supports them), there would be no reward for being "good" -- people who work by rules of honour or dignity or respect would get trampled by those with less scruples.

In the end, only the least honourable or moral or compassionate would survive.

Which makes for LOTS of adventuring fun.

 

[Ristamar]

All in all, the number of checks and balances existing in a campaign are staggering, not only in the world itself, but spanning the vastness of the multiverse, touching both gods and mortals.

Trying to rationalize or even remotely catalog a web of this complexity is an exercise in futility. There could be a hundread reasons why the bad guys don't swoop down and eradicate upcoming opposition (the PC's). There could be only one reason, one single circumstance that allows the players to cling to life. The charming thing is, the PC's often never know, or only come to realize how close to death they were until the danger has already passed.

I believe a good rule of thumb would be to know what the primary movers and shakers want and what keeps them in check (or at least in the shadows), along with some minor ones that may involve the PC's in the near future. The rest of the blanks can be filled in by the DM as needed, saving tons of time and preventing a huge headache in the process.

 

[barsoomcore]

Here's another logic problem: Exactly how many high level spellcasters would this campaign setting really have? How did they ever get to be high level without ticking off some OTHER powerful wizard or cleric who would decide to end this upstarts rise to glory?

Yes, exactly. You wouldn't have very many, most likely, and most that you did have would probably lie low as long as possible -- they don't want to take the chance that there's somebody out there more powerful than them.

This is why they're all so terrible. Only the nastiest and most determined, most willing to pay the price, will succeed.

And what's high level now?

My thinking was that it would be VERY high level. These people do nothing but study and acquire more and more power -- always trying to make themselves more and more invulnerable.

This seems like a problem that could just keep spiraling further and further downwards until you reach the point where you decide it's not worth playing in that campaign due to short life spans of characters. Huh, kinda sounds like Call of Cthuulu.

Uh, yeah. Exactly. Of course, IMC, I spend a lot of effort on the PCs, coming up with story reasons for them to able to get along. So the campaign has afforded them ways of acquiring tentative allies and freakish powers of their own. The central idea of the campaign is that power is something that only comes to those who are willing to pay the price required -- and it's very difficult to come through that process and remain a recognizably moral person. People who have done so typically are either so shattered by the experience that they no longer hold to moral codes they once revered, or they now take such a long view of human endeavour that their short-term behaviour seems incredibly callous and inhumane to those who can't see the big picture.

Boy, I sure like to talk about this...

 

[Forrester]

The point is that it's a lot easier trying to figure out a way to keep everyone in check if you nuke Scry/Teleport.

For example, in my campaign the party is/was on the run from some higher-level elves. Can the elves track them down eventually? Sure. Can they just teleport in and kill them immediately? No -- because I changed Scry/Teleport. I don't HAVE to bust my brain thinking of some reason why the high level bad-guy NPCs haven't killed the party yet. I don't have to make odd excuses or create weird and false-sounding scenarios or use suspension of disbelief. All I had to do is change the way one spell worked.

Which leaves me a helluva lot more time working on aspects of the campaign . . . time that I'd otherwise be spending wracking my brain trying to come up with a logical reason why the party should still be alive!

Rule 0. It's a time-saver, people!

 

[Wolfen Priest]

Here's an idea.

If it bothers you (as a DM) so much that a super-high-level-evil-badguy-type could just swoop in and destroy his enemies (presumably the PC's or some other character central to the plot) then simply don't have the PC's go up against such powerful foes. That's what I do, and so far it's worked pretty well.

I forgot who mentioned it, but someone said that basically, super-high-level-evil-badguy-types are gonna war against super-high-level-evil-goodguy-types in most cases. I think this was the whole basis for Greyhawk adopting the Circle of Eight (or whatever it was called). They protected the world from mega-powerful evil forces.

Furthermore, I really don't see a major problem with good deities stepping in to protect goodguys from super-high-level-evil-badguy-types; and the super-high-level-evil-badguy-types are not as likely to be protected by their demonic/devilish overlords because, lets face it, the Blood Wars are pretty time-consuming.

 

[Ristamar]

Can the elves track them down eventually? Sure. Can they just teleport in and kill them immediately? No...

You're only delaying the inevitable...

But hey, whatever works for you. Ultimately, I don't think it's makes things any more logical than they would be with the non-nerfed versions, but if you're comfortable with it, and the players enjoy it, that's what counts, right?

 

[TiQuinn]

I think it's funny that a group of players would be sitting around saying "Why don't the bad guys just teleport in and nuke us into the ground? It's what I'd do."

And myself, being the accomodating DM, would do so.

And that'd be the end of the campaign.

And that'd be the last time a player ever gave me such a good idea!

 

[TiQuinn]

Uh, yeah. Exactly. Of course, IMC, I spend a lot of effort on the PCs, coming up with story reasons for them to able to get along. So the campaign has afforded them ways of acquiring tentative allies and freakish powers of their own. The central idea of the campaign is that power is something that only comes to those who are willing to pay the price required -- and it's very difficult to come through that process and remain a recognizably moral person. People who have done so typically are either so shattered by the experience that they no longer hold to moral codes they once revered, or they now take such a long view of human endeavour that their short-term behaviour seems incredibly callous and inhumane to those who can't see the big picture.

Boy, I sure like to talk about this...

It sounds like a great campaign, honestly. It just sounds to me like it would be mainly for low to mid level characters, cause after that high level characters either get killed or become so paranoid and amoral that they are effectively NPCs. High Level play just doesn't work for every campaign. Heck, after reading the ELH, I decided that there were would be tons of stuff that I would NEVER use, simply because it was too over the top for my tastes. There's not a lot of subtlety in that book. But I'm not sure if that's a problem with the book, or just that it's not geared to the kind of game I want to run. Heck, I can't even imagine what a 30th level character would be like! He certainly wouldn't be an adventurer anymore, IMC.

 

[Falcmir]

Amoral evil villains may initally start at an advantage just because they are willing to stab others in the back however that kind of thing does not go unnoticed. You tend not to have many friends if you are willing to kill them to get ahead, one high level wizard is not the equal of a group of high level wizards or even a mixed high level group. That's why organizations like the Harpers of the Forgotten Realms form, or the council of 8 in Greyhawk.

Now it's possible for a battle of evil wizards to develop and give you a world like Dark Sun, but I dont think it's inevitable or that the published campaign settings dont include elements that negate the affect of high level evil wizards(or at least rain them in).

As to the other question...

I'm much more interested in the question of what would happen to human society in a world much like ours (where basic cosmological questions don't have answers) where people gained access to the kind of power that D&D wizards have? I believe it would shatter human society and lead to no end of suffering and horror as the rules of engagement basically led to only the worst of the bunch getting ahead. Since they would have no restrictions on their behaviour (unlike politicians or other leaders in our world, who are constrained by public opinion and the social construct that supports them), there would be no reward for being "good" -- people who work by rules of honour or dignity or respect would get trampled by those with less scruples.

I dont really see this as being far off from the real world yet we somehow managed to form democracies and have at least some interest in human rights at least in parts of the world. The real world has been and still is quite brutal at times but in the end there are still good people surviving. I guess it all comes down to a combination of "treat others as you would have them treat you" and "there's always a bigger dog", meaning that if you keep trying to bully your way to power eventually someone will smack you back into your place.

The other thing I question is whether even the most evil wizard who reaches high level is going to care all that much about ruling and instilling fear in common people when the wide multiverse of the planes exists. Even if he just sticks on the prime material with the nature of magic he has little need for masses of servants and underlings, he can achieve whatever he wants with magic.

 

[LokiDR]

This conversation has gone quit far afield. What about a high level spy master? He has eyes and ears everywhere. He will know where the PCs are, sneak in with huge bonuses, and kill them in their sleep. No scry. No teleport. Dead party.

If a party is directly facing a much stronger force, they lose. My party of 5 pcs, averaging 5th level, faces a 10th level wizard, and they die. If you try to change this concept, you are throwing out logic entirely. If you want very experienced characters to reasonably afraid of a party you do not want to play the D&D game that was written in the core books. I suggest you invest in "The End". D&D was never written to be that gritty. Honestly, if you want to talk about a game that is, you are not talking D&D. In a game like that, scry, teleport, commune and many other spells MUST be snipped. Fine, but you are not running the game that was written as D&D.

If you like this game, more power to you. But then we have no way to talk about a game. We are playing different games. The soap actor ends up in an action movie.

As far as that game, I do like them. Hey, I play ShadowRun. I think I will check out this campaign you keep talking about, barsoomcore. I have had very similar concepts for several games. But even then, the paranoia should keep the high levels in line, and the mods to scry/teleport et. al. shouldn't be neccessary.