times they are a changen....

[jgbrowning]

well...

I suggest you invest in "The End". D&D was never written to be that gritty. Honestly, if you want to talk about a game that is, you are not talking D&D. In a game like that, scry, teleport, commune and many other spells MUST be snipped. Fine, but you are not running the game that was written as D&D.

If you like this game, more power to you. But then we have no way to talk about a game. We are playing different games.

how much has to change before its a different game?

joe b.

 

[LokiDR]

Re: well...

how much has to change before its a different game?

joe b.

I would say if you are re-writing spells so that a low party can face "a group of powerful elves".

 

[rounser]

I can see justification for a villain not teleporting in and blowing away the PCs personally in the same way that they populate dungeons with weak creatures near the entrance, stronger the further you progress, and allow their huge forces to be chipped away at in dribs and drabs.

Likewise, if the 20th level villain notices the 10th level party is giving him trouble and determines their location via scry, he'll have some goons teleport in and attempt to clean them up rather than doing so himself. Why? Well, you could say that it's because the goons should be able to handle it, and he's got bigger fish to fry...and that he assumes that they've taken care of it, and so spends time elsewhere...but really, the underlying reason is that it's CR metagame logic at work, and we're used to that.

You could coordinate the time at which the villain realises that the PCs need dealing with personally with the time at which they've gained enough levels to face him. But, by that time, the villain may realise through scrying that they're too risky to attempt to deal with personally (oops), and instead wait for them on his own turf. Perhaps harper assassins and plane-hopping had him distracted - a 20th level wizard is probably darn busy, no? Maybe he keeps on putting it off....perhaps the PCs will find a note in his day planner when they finally off him - "20th Marpenoth. Practice evil laughter in mirror. Go shopping for bat guano. Teleport in and meteor swarm pesky adventurers before lunch. Afternoon nap. Quality time with familiar. Don't forget to wear amulet of nondetection when going to bed..."

 

[LokiDR]

LOL, quality time with familiar.

 

[barsoomcore]

Amoral evil villains may initally start at an advantage just because they are willing to stab others in the back however that kind of thing does not go unnoticed. You tend not to have many friends if you are willing to kill them to get ahead, one high level wizard is not the equal of a group of high level wizards or even a mixed high level group. That's why organizations like the Harpers of the Forgotten Realms form, or the council of 8 in Greyhawk.

*shrug*

My suggestion is that groups like that would never form in the first place. The power of magic rewards selfish action because your power is not increased by working with others. People who are willing to share power will inevitably be consumed by those who are not. World history certainly suggests that such is the nature of human, er, nature.

I dont really see this as being far off from the real world yet we somehow managed to form democracies and have at least some interest in human rights at least in parts of the world.

Exactly my point. In OUR world, power is social. Without society, you have no more power than the reach of your arm. This acts as a limiting effect on the nature of power that can be wielded. You have to have support from SOMEONE in order to have any power at all. You can't afford to alienate or frighten everyone around you.

Magic throws that right out the window. The worst sort of monster in the world can become a 20th-level wizard, as long as he overcomes enough challenges and gains the needed amount of experience. He doesn't need ANYONE else. His power isn't social, and because of that it's not subject to the checks and balances that power always has in our world.

If you keep trying to bully your way to power eventually someone will smack you back into your place.

Exactly. And unlike a political/social leader, they're not likely to be concerned over what happens to you or anyone near you as a result of that smack. There's no reason for them to try and preserve anyone -- in fact there's good reason for them to try and destroy anyone who looks like a threat.

Even if he just sticks on the prime material with the nature of magic he has little need for masses of servants and underlings, he can achieve whatever he wants with magic.

What's scarier: someone who wants to rule everyone else in the world, or someone who doesn't care one iota whether or not there IS anyone else in the world? The idea of human beings manipulating the kind of power that D&D provides frankly terrifies me.

Now, I'll admit, that's a pretty bleak view of human nature. Sue me. It also makes for a really stressful and exciting campaign.

 

[Forrester]

Loki, you know not of what you speak. I'm not playing D&D? You're a nut!

Besides, I think you have the wrong impression about the relative power levels of the elves here.

Let me spell out the levels of what I'm talking about . . .


BEGINNING of Part I of my campaign:

1st level party must deal with a 500-elf force that has started to set up shop in the nearby wilderness, which is a pretty expansive area -- 50 miles x 30 miles. The highest level elf they need to deal with was 6th level, and there were only three of these (outpost leaders). 75% of these elves are just 1st level lackeys . . . admittedly, they all have MW armor, and all 3rd+ level elves in this army have MW armor and MW weapons and a "buffing" or healing potion or three. Cheaty elves!

The party has aid in the form of a refugee village of kobolds and goblins (that has a scattering of higher-level folks, though nobody over 4th level), and an orc tribe (50 or so orcs) thirty or forty miles away.

THEY SURVIVE by using terrorist tactics. They level quickly, and soon the elves can only make sure that their 5-man patrols survive by making them 20-man patrols. The party can avoid these without a whole lot of trouble, when necessary. So while it seems they are dealing with overwhelming odds . . . because I "nerfed" wand creation and because the rules of my world tend to frown on higher level Divinations (no 3rd level elven clerics with scrolls of Commune to use in emergencies), the party survives.

And it's still "real" D&D. Trust me.


END OF PART I of my campaign

The party, now averaging 6th level, manages to lead the refugee kobolds and goblins en masse through a passage leading into the Underdark. Unfortunately, the orc tribe was wiped out when the party left a couple orc flunky bodies back at an ambush.

Speak with Dead + Speak with Plants at the battle site = Elves finding out where the orc tribe was based. This led to some very, very dead orcs, as the tribe was pretty much completely wiped out . . . and a very, very irritated party, who received an object lesson in how irritating even low-level divinations can be. See? I kept some of them around .

The party ends up killing an outpost leader, and over 100 elves, in the three months of game time previous to this escape. The elves are PISSED about this, but because their resources are stretched (they're in the middle of a big multi-front war), they can't just bring out an 18th level party to go PC-hunting.

Though if they could Scry/Teleport, they probably would; it'd be over with in five minutes.

So I "nerf" Scry/Teleport. The party runs, runs, runs into the nassssty Underdark, but the situation is such that the elves cannot pursue immediately, and by the time they can catch up, the party has managed to cover its tracks and escape. (Yay Stone Shape + some extraordinarily heavily bribed xorn!).

Once again, after a small "nerfing", it makes logical sense that the party can survive, even though there are higher-level elves on the party's case.

To sum up:

1) No party is going to be able to survive easily when their opponents are ten levels higher than they are. If the party had really *really* pissed off the elves, they'd be willing to burn a Wish or two to locate them.

2) BUT, with Scry/Teleport out there, no party is going to be able to survive when their opponents are just a LITTLE more powerful than they are, especially if these opponents have many more resources available to them.

Barsoom is the one talking about mages popping in to cast Meteor Swarm on up-and-comers. I'm not (though I can see how that might come about, and his campaign sounds very cool!) The power differential I'm talking about here isn't 10th level versus 20th level -- it's 6th vs 9th, or 10th vs 14th.

As the DM, you can create a situation where the party's survival is plausible under those circumstances if they don't do anything stupid, even though their foes are more powerful than they are. And you're still playing D&D.

But, it seems to me, only if you "nerf" Scry/Teleport first. If you insist that's not D&D . . . you're just wrong.

 

[Falcmir]

My suggestion is that groups like that would never form in the first place. The power of magic rewards selfish action because your power is not increased by working with others. People who are willing to share power will inevitably be consumed by those who are not. World history certainly suggests that such is the nature of human, er, nature.

But human nature rewards social action. Two high level wizards are more powerful than one so working with others does increase your power. Even beyond wizards any character hoping to get to high level is more likely to do so with the aid of companions, a low level wizard with the aid of a fighter is much more likely to survive to high level than a low level wizard acting on his own.

Exactly my point. In OUR world, power is social. Without society, you have no more power than the reach of your arm. This acts as a limiting effect on the nature of power that can be wielded. You have to have support from SOMEONE in order to have any power at all. You can't afford to alienate or frighten everyone around you.

You have a point here but it's limited by the social factors. The most physically strong man in the world has the power to beat everyone else into the ground if he wishes but he doesnt because others will gang up on him. The same holds true for wizards because even with the massive amount of firepower they can dish out unless they are a significant number of levels more powerful than their nearest competition they can be defeated.

While a wizard can have power without support from anyone, he can not use it on others indiscriminately or he will face opposition, and enough to bring an end to his life.

Exactly. And unlike a political/social leader, they're not likely to be concerned over what happens to you or anyone near you as a result of that smack. There's no reason for them to try and preserve anyone -- in fact there's good reason for them to try and destroy anyone who looks like a threat.

There is reason, strength in numbers. It's the reason humanity has found to work together from day one, it's the reason wolves hunt in packs, the reason geese fly in big v's. Your lone psycopathic wizard will quickly find himself destroyed by a more powerful group if he seeks to go against society.

What's scarier: someone who wants to rule everyone else in the world, or someone who doesn't care one iota whether or not there IS anyone else in the world? The idea of human beings manipulating the kind of power that D&D provides frankly terrifies me.

True the careless villain is just as dangerous as the menacing one, but unless he is miles more powerful than every other wizard on the planet he's not an incredible threat.

As to humans manipulating power on the level of D&D magic, we havent killed ourselves yet after almost 60 years with nuclear weapons, I dont think any spell comes close to that level of power.

I agree that a world run by massively hostile evil powers can be interesting but I dont think it's the only way or even the most logical way for a world to develop.

 

[LokiDR]

Loki, you know not of what you speak. I'm not playing D&D? You're a nut!

Besides, I think you have the wrong impression about the relative power levels of the elves here.

.....

Barsoom is the one talking about mages popping in to cast Meteor Swarm on up-and-comers. I'm not (though I can see how that might come about, and his campaign sounds very cool!) The power differential I'm talking about here isn't 10th level versus 20th level -- it's 6th vs 9th, or 10th vs 14th.

As the DM, you can create a situation where the party's survival is plausible under those circumstances if they don't do anything stupid, even though their foes are more powerful than they are. And you're still playing D&D.

But, it seems to me, only if you "nerf" Scry/Teleport first. If you insist that's not D&D . . . you're just wrong.

Your whole description of what happened sounds like a great story. I would like to play in a game like that. It does not change the fact that it is not D&D, it is your homebrew campaign. Oriental Adventures is not D&D. It looks like D&D, it has a lot of the same rules as D&D, and many people just consider it the same. But in oriental adventures, you do not come back from the dead. In D&D you have a reasonable expectation of it. This is only one difference. Do you understand?

You can not expect any rule that comes out of your game of semi-epic plot to apply to, say, return to the temple of elemental evil. The match never starts because you are not even on the same field. No basis of comparison. I can't say any of your decisions were good or bad, because they don't relate to the adventures I see well enough.

How can I care about an opinion formed from such a different world? Teleport/scry didn't even come up. You are not trying to run the game that the rules were written for. If D&D made sense, how would you ever explain hit points? If the threat is 4 levels higher than the party with huge resorces, the PCs should either run away quickly or have an extreemly difficult fight. Your PCs didn't seem to be that close to death, even if they were hard up, after all they only lost one of three groups, and that seems mostly the orcs fault. And your situation was low level. The higher level you go, the more you will have to change to match your concept.

You change several rules, present a situation that is explicitly out of the realm of possible from a CR/DMG point of view, and you still call it the same game? And I am nuts?

For the record, I am no more nuts than you are an ego maniac

 

[jgbrowning]

Re: Re: well...

I would say if you are re-writing spells so that a low party can face "a group of powerful elves".

come now.. you don't rewrite spells in your game to maintain what you consider "balance"?

joe b.

 

[Desdichado]

Re: Re: well...

I would say if you are re-writing spells so that a low party can face "a group of powerful elves".

You think it's a "different game" and we can't even talk about it anymore if two spells are rewritten?!?

I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree. As far as I'm concerned, I haven't even seen a d20 game that was so different that I'd call it a "different game." To me, D&D and d20 are synonomous, and all these variants are just that: variants on the same theme and mechanic.