Tiny creatures and cover

[Gnarlo]

Been looking back through all the available old messages, and so far have not found this item. A combat is occurring with a group of cave rats (Tiny creatures) and the PCs. The rats get surprise and move into the squares with a number of the PCs (no AoO). The next round begins. If a PC outside of the square does a melee attack, should the rat have any cover bonus for being in the same square as the first PC? I had thought perhaps to cover the situation as if they were grappling, but I can't find anything that deals in the grapple section regarding two combatants in the same space and any penalties to melee combat targeted into that square? Anyone know any rules, or have any house rules they use?

 

[Christian]

I can't find the rule either-but I'm positive I've seen a rule that an attack on a grappled opponent has a 50% chance of targeting either grappler, regardless of the attacker's intention. That may have been just for ranged attacks, though ... I can't find anything on this in the SRD, and my PH is at home. Anyone else have better luck?

 

[Christian]

Firking ding-blast. Finally found it in the SRD, and it is just for ranged attacks. Seems like a Tiny creature in the same square as a Medium creature would be harder to hit, but it doesn't look like there's a rule for this ...

 

[Lord Ben]

I think the rule you're thinking of is in the Bull-Rush section. If you move with someone while rushing them you provoke AO's, but they stand a chance of hitting the other person. It's in the bull-rush section though.

 

[twjensen]

Gut-feeling

Since it's never mentioned (at least I never found it), I'm inclined to believe that the rats do not get cover and can be attacked normally. If they got cover, or some other benefit, it would say so.

That said, what exactly is the rule on ranged attacks? There was an implication of a rule, but no mention of exactly where (other than "in the SRD") The rule I recall is that creatures of the same size provide cover for each other vs. ranged attacks. Creatures of differing sizes generally do NOT provide cover for each other, although as I recall there was wiggle room for DM interpretation.

(Why? Because the bulk of a large creatures' mass is higher off the ground. So my point of aim changes depending on creature size.)

 

[Christian]

OK, now I'm safe at home with my handy-dandy Player's Handbook. (Hard to cite page numbers in the SRD, you know. ) Page 132, Table 8-8: Attack Roll Modifiers. On the row 'Defender grappling (attacker not), the Ranged column has +0 with a double-dagger superscript. The referenced footnote states: "Roll randomly to see which grappling combatant you strike. That defender loses any Dexterity bonus to AC."

The Bull Rush rule referenced below my post is on p. 136, the last two sentences of the 'Initiating a Bull Rush' section (right above Table 8-13: Common Weapon and Shield Hardness and Hit Points, which breaks up the Bull Rush section over pages 136 and 137):
"Any attack of opportunity made by anyone other than the defender against you during a bull rush has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting the defender instead, and any attack of opportunity by anyone other than you against the defender likewise has a 25% chance of accidentally targeting you. (When someone makes an attack of opportunity, she makes the attack roll and then rolls to see whether the attack went astray.)"

Neither of these rules makes any reference to the possibility of the grapplers/bull rusher and bull rushee being of different sizes. I imagine that the size modifiers to AC are supposed to be handling this in an extremely abstract fashion ...

One could reasonably extend the bull rush melee AoO rule and the grappling ranged attack rule to the general case of attacks against a defender who is sharing a space with an ally (including to the reciprocal cases of ranged attacks during a bull rush [readied actions, those would have to be] and melee attacks into a grapple [when neither opponent is pinned, I'd suggest]).

 

[Gnarlo]

Thanks for the replies and references! I'm away from home at the moment and can't get to my books, but as soon as I get back I'll check the rules you all have mentioned.

I'm thinking of some sort of cross between the grapple rules and ranged cover rules, depending on the square the attacker is in and the square the tiny creature entered from. E.g., the Tiny creature enters the square with the party member from the north, then it has some sort of cover from a party member attacking into the square from the south...

 

[Faragdar]

I remember from T&B that a familiar gets cover from its master when in the same square--50%, I think. That's the way I work it when a tiny creature shares its opponent's square. Here's an exerpt from a message I sent to The Sage on the subject of tiny creatures in combat:

Does a tiny creature receives cover from it's target if they share the same square, as with a familiar and its master? Does that cover apply vs. other tiny creatures in the same square?

I suppose so.

Not terribly enlightening, I know, but I took it as a suggestion that I wasn't completely off base.

 

[Christian]

I see the Sage is really going out on a limb these days.