Tips on Streamlining for a Very Large Party?

[merelycompetent]

The ideas for running characters during players tardiness seem sound, but I am restrained from doing this by my first parameter, which prevents me from limiting their social interaction.

Observation: Your first parameter is going to severely limit your options, as DM and social gathering host, for fixing the problems you outlined. This is not a criticism - you and your group get additional fun out of the game through this sort of activity. I and my group don't. We just have different playing styles.

The unruly players are dealt with in time by consequence and their fellow party-member's natural reactions. This is one of the nice side-affects of a large group: the newer players can look up to the seasoned ones.

Observation and suggestion: The drawback to this approach, IMO, is that the unruly player gets to develop the habit of being unruly *before* social pressure can stop it. This makes it harder for the unruly player to change his/her behavior, and ten times harder for the other players and DM. The other players and DM have to put up with rude behavior that can easily be fixed by a quick (and *polite*) conversation with the DM before the next game. No one needs to be embarrassed (hold it as a one-on-one, and no one else needs to know you talked) - just make sure that everyone knows what the "good behavior" rules are up front. IME, it's better if everyone knows up front what is considered good playing and what is considered bad playing. Set the expectations - for the game, and for "common courtesy".

Suggestion that's worked well for me: Hold a brief "House Rules Writing" for an hour at the beginning of the next session. Pass out your rough draft of rules/ideas to make things go faster (or be more enjoyable), and ask for everyone's comments on them. Have them write it on their draft copy and pass it back to you. This way, the players all get the rules at the same time, have some say in what/when/how those rules are formed or applied, *and* you get the benefit of all those extra minds coming up with ideas. A couple of sessions later, release your now formalized House Rules. Update them at least twice a year.

Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to carry over enough in the rules department. The paladin, who has been with us since the beginning still doesn't seem to have a role. She's not the combatant (elf with a holy rapier). She was once the healer, but then a cleric showed up. She's not the archer anymore, a ranger has showed up (although family often keeps the player from attending).

Suggestion: I've also held one-on-one training sessions with players. I call them "character sheet reviews," where I go over the character with the player and make suggestions about options available for the PC. One that I give regularly goes to the clerics - no one seems to use the divination spells in the books to their fullest. So I go over what augury, divination, and commune can do for the PC and the party (ex: keeping a list of questions about any metaplots handy for when they use a commune to deal with a trick/trap, so they can "fill up" the question per level queue). I've also held these for AOO rules and turning/rebuking undead. This might prove very time-consuming for you - you may want to dedicate a half hour at the beginning of a couple of game sessions to go over certain rules. Be wary of coming across as "dictating" what the player can/can't do with the character. Make sure you ask the player what he/she wants to do, if he/she is interested in pursuing this aspect of teh character's abilities, or if he/she'd rather just break heads.

I guess what I need are some ideas that are leaning on the outside of the box; I will not violate my first parameter, just to get some goals accomplished. All in all, the campaign is doing well, but it is wearing me out, during the sessions.

Anyway, thanks for good ideas.

Suggestion: Shift some of the work onto the players. Make one of them responsible for keeping up with getting current copies of everyone's PC (and depending NPCs, companions, familiars, etc.) to you. Make it a requirement that you get that updated character sheet, or the late ones don't get XP awards. Enforce it.

Suggestion: As others have suggested, have them pick a party leader - this is the person who keeps track of party intitative and similar things - freeing you up to run the adventure.

Hope this helps!

 

[WayneLigon]

Good tips, but I forgot to mention that a majority of the group is new to role-playing, and most of the others are new to the edition. This gives me a whole lot more work in the rules department.

This changes things tremendously.

What I would suggest:

1. Throw out the time-wasters in the tactical rules. Drop Attacks of Opportunity, reach, cover, sundering, tripping, all that mess. Forget about them and never mention them, ever. Don't let them waste time taking some of the exotic feats relating to them, either. About the only thing I'd leave would be Flanking. The only movement they should care about is the normal move, and the run (don't let them get discouraged from fleeing because they think they can only flee at 30" a round - make that point and make sure they know it).

Don't bother with encumberance, spell components other than the holy symbol, or any of the other administrivia that's in the book. Shoot, I wouldn't even bother keeping track of arrows or stuff like that. The more you make the game seem like an exercise in resource management and accounting, the more you will lose their attention.

Once they've mastered the basics in a couple months (Sound long? I've been playing with newbies recently and they are still not used to the different shaped dice after four weeks), then maybe take fifteen minutes at the beginning of a session to go over A rule if they seem to be craving it. In fact, do this a little bit at the beginning so they don't wonder why A gets to do something while B cannot. Tell them why sneak attack works the way it does, or discuss the role of the cleric, or the difference between a wizard and sorcerer. Point up the strength of each class and how they work together. If you can do this when y'all get together normally, even better.

2. Pick the spells the casters will have access to. Either find or create a short document that gives them the basic range, damage or effect, save and such for each spell they can use. 3x5 cards are excellent because then they can lay out what they have prepared per day.

Divine casters? Pare their spell list down to about six spells, the common bread-and-butter spells they'll be using most often. Let them know about the others, and use 'You have a prophetic dream' to suggest they look at another couple spellsnow and again.

3. In a large combat, and all of them will be large for you, have them pre-roll a series of attack dice and damage. Yes, it will take a little tension out of the game, but with only 4 hours, you're going to want to maximize every second of your time. Just have them roll a simple series of numbers and use them in order, drawing a line through them as you go. A person with, say, a Short Sword and a Str of 12 might have a series that looks like:

12 2
16 6
1 3
5 7

after a round of combat. First roll is the 'to hit', second number is damage (They may want to ignore rolling damage on anything under a 'to hit' of 10).

Try this: it's not for everyone. A series of known bad die rolls may lead to them being discouraged and you do not want that.

4. Organization. Make sure their character sheets are complete. All those boxes are there for a fricking reason and there is no excuse for someone to constantly be adding up their BAB+str bonus+feat bonus+whatever when there is a box for that derived number on the sheet, in the weapon box. 'Roll a d20 and add that number' is the only instruction they need. Make sure a weapon box is filled out for each weapon they carry. Make sure the armor is listed, etc. Emphasize tht this is something you need to do at best once per level.

 

[kigmatzomat]

I think you have mutually incompatible desires. You don't want to eliminate the out-of-character stuff, you don't want to impose any forced rules and you want order.

I would recommend cutting the group in half and running two bi-weekly games. Put everyone who can, and has been, consistently on time in one group. Put the others in the second group. Give the first group a more serious gaming experience while the others get beer & pretzels gaming. It cuts down the stress on you and still lets you hang out with friends.

If they *all* want to be together and you don't have the heart to bring the hammer down, switch to one of the rules-light D&D variants, tell the spellcasters to become warlocks/sorcerors/simple-casters, and have all the character sheets left with you so they can be played by someone else when the inevitable lateness happens. Grab one of the decent prepackaged campaigns (Freeport is good and I've heard nice things about some of the Adventure Paths) to minimize your effort so you don't inadvertently burn yourself out.

 

[frankthedm]

Trust me, i had the same problem in my college gaming group. Players just kept showing up! In the end, there were 11-16 of us, and the gm, completely burned out, just threw a CR 30-ish encounter against the "super party" of 13th-15th level heroes. (it was an undead godling fetus, hell-bent on destroying reality. anyone know what CR that thing is?)

If it had a nasty energy draining aura, it was an Atropal. You should have been semi safe until it Greater dispelled your Death Wards since nearly every attack it launches is a drain of some type. If you did not have death ward up, you died in round 1.
[Sblock=Atropal, aborted fetus a god]
Size/Type: Large Undead (Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 66d12 (792 hp)
Initiative: +6 (+2 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 5 ft., fly 240 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 51 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +40 natural)
Base Attack/Grapple: +33/+53
Attack: Touch +49 melee touch (2d6 Con drain/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 touches +49 melee touch (2d6 Con drain/19-20), eye ray +30 ranged touch (negative level damage/19-20)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constitution drain, energy drain (2d4 negative levels, Fort DC 59), spell-like abilities, summon nightcrawler
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, undead traits, rebuke/command undead, regeneration 20, SR 42, DR 15/good and epic and silver, negative energy aura
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +26, Will +43
Abilities: Str 43, Dex 15, Con Ø, Int 28, Wis 22, Cha 42
Skills: Bluff +85, Concentration +85, Diplomacy +97, Hide -2, Jump +1, Intimidate +91, Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, the planes) +78, Listen +77, Search +78, Sense Motive +75, Spellcraft +84, Spot +77
Feats: Alertness, Cleave, Dodge, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (touch), Improved Critical (eye ray), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (finger of death), Run, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus (touch), Weapon Focus (eye ray), Whirlwind Attack
Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (touch), Overwhelming Critical (touch), Undead Mastery, Zone of Animation
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 30
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: 67-80 HD (Large); 81-100 HD (Huge)

An atropal’s natural weapons are treated as epic, evil, and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Combat
Spell-Like Abilities
At will—animate dead, blasphemy, create greater undead, create undead, cone of cold, desecrate, greater dispel magic, finger of death, greater invisibility, plane shift, slay living, speak with dead, spectral hand, greater teleport, unholy aura; 5/day—haste, project image, weird. Caster level 30th; save DC 26 + spell level.

The save DCs are Charisma-based

Rebuke/Command Undead (Su)
Atropals can rebuke or command undead as a cleric with a level equal to the atropal’s HD + 6.

Negative Energy Aura (Su)
A 30-foot-radius spread negative energy aura spreads from each atropal. All undead in the field (including the atropal) are treated as if having turn resistance +20 and a negative energy version of fast healing 20. Living creatures in the aura are treated as having ten negative levels unless they have some sort of negative energy protection or protection from evil. Creatures with 10 or fewer HD or levels perish (and, at the atropal’s option, rise as spectres under the atropal’s command 1 minute later).

Constitution Drain (Su)
When the atropal hits a living opponent with a touch attack, the opponent takes 5 points of permanent Constitution drain, or 10 points on a critical hit. The atropal heals 20 points of damage, or 40 points on a critical hit, whenever it drains Constitution, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last a maximum of 1 hour. The attack allows a Fortitude save (DC 59). The DC is Charisma-based.

Energy Drain (Su)
When the atropal hits with a ranged touch attack (a ray of darkness that it shoots from one eye to a range of 400 feet), the resultant energy drain bestows four negative levels, or eight negative levels on a critical hit. For each negative level bestowed on an opponent, the atropal heals 10 points of damage, or 20 on a critical hit, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. These temporary hit points last a maximum of 1 hour. After 24 hours have passed, the afflicted opponent must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 59) for each negative level. If successful, the negative level goes away with no harm to the creature; otherwise, the creature’s level decreases by one. The DC is Charisma-based.

Regeneration (Ex)
Atropals take normal damage from good weapons or sentient weapons (or otherwise living weapons).

Summon Nightcrawler (Sp)
Five times per day an atropal can summon a nightcrawler.

Abomination Traits
Immune to polymorphing, petrification, and other form-altering attacks; not subject to energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, or death from massive damage; immune to mind-affecting effects; fire resistance 20; cold resistance 20; nondetection; true seeing at will; blindsight 500 ft.; telepathy out to 1,000 ft.

Undead Traits
Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, mind-affecting effects, and any effect requiring a Fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Negative energy heals. Not at risk of death from massive damage, but destroyed at 0 hit points or less. Darkvision 60 ft. Cannot be raised; resurrection works only if creature is willing. [/Sblock]

1. Casters must have read thier spell befor casting and must have the text on hand for the dm to read.

2. Summoners must have ther monster stats on hand.

3. Combatants must have all calculations stated as they roll thier attacks and damage. All dice rolled at the same time.

 

[Once a Fool]

1. Throw out the time-wasters in the tactical rules. Drop Attacks of Opportunity, reach, cover, sundering, tripping, all that mess. Forget about them and never mention them, ever. Don't let them waste time taking some of the exotic feats relating to them, either. About the only thing I'd leave would be Flanking. The only movement they should care about is the normal move, and the run (don't let them get discouraged from fleeing because they think they can only flee at 30" a round - make that point and make sure they know it).

Don't bother with encumberance, spell components other than the holy symbol, or any of the other administrivia that's in the book. Shoot, I wouldn't even bother keeping track of arrows or stuff like that. The more you make the game seem like an exercise in resource management and accounting, the more you will lose their attention.

Nice ideas (I already don't worry about encumberance, unless it really matters, or ammunition.

But, the players who are not new to the edition really use those tactical options quite a bit. The half-orc monk, for instance, is quite the grappler.

I know that my parameters seem contradictory (that's the point, I suppose), but I feel that they help the characters and the players ALL evolve as a group, which, really, is what it's all about for me.

I guess it is time to have them elect a team leader (might as well have a name, too). The position may hold an XP bonus, to go along with the added responsibility.

The unruly players give me plot-hooks, so that's not a problem. They make bad situations for the party on their own.

As for splitting the group up, I don't think it's viable. I couldn't run two games with my current schedule and the games ARE enjoyable even at the current size. Another DM might do it, but I don't think anyone else is willing to put forth the time or preperation to do that, anyway.

It's a good dynamic, it's just clunky.

Anyway, thanks for the tips. More are, of course, welcome.

 

[briezee]

Do you have anyone that might be interested in DMing down the road? Maybe they'd be interested in learning by helping you as a DM's helper. If nothing else, after 7-9 levels, they should have the basics down well enough to help. For those intimated by the rules, make them learn them slowly. E.g., in your girlfriend's case, have her figure out initiative and one or two combat actions. Let her practice those. When she has them down and can do them without help, add another. And I would make your spellcasters make spellcards or at the very least print off the spell information from d20srd.org. That way they can get just the spells they need and it really doesn't take all that much time. For spellcasters unwilling to do that, perhaps they ought to rethink their class.