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Tired of using CON modifier as a bonus to HP? Here's a simple alternative...
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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8832275" data-attributes="member: 6987520"><p>Fine, since you insist...</p><p></p><p>The issue was players feeling they had to have a good CON score because they needed the hit points. Period. Sure, there are <em>other</em> reasons to have a good CON score, but the issue was hit points, being abstract, shouldn't be one of them.</p><p></p><p>So, unless you want to have fewer hit points, you need a way of removing CON bonus from hit points. The easiest way to do that is to use the maximum of the HD instead of rolling. It keeps hit points close to what typical CON bonuses are.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. Hit points are the primary reason not to dump CON overall. Casters have lower HD already, so having high CON is <em>doubly</em> beneficial to them--both hit point bonuses <em>and</em> boosts in Concentration checks. But, if you read my <em>other</em> posts here, you would see I directly addressed aspects of CON such as Concentration checks and various saves.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I never said it was less OP than CON, did I? This is NOT a pushback on CON, so much as divorcing it from hit points so it doesn't feel as essential to every PC.</p><p></p><p>DEX, while great and yes, in my opinion OP, is not as essential. Here are the reasons:</p><p></p><p>1. Initiative is swingy and cyclical. DEX helps, but it is hardly essential for it. Once the order is established, you really only need to survive the first enemy turn, and then you go.</p><p>2. Having higher HP helps you survive, of course, as well as a better AC. However, there are many ways to take damage that has nothing to do with AC or DEX saves. HP helps in ALL those cases.</p><p></p><p>Easy fixes to make DEX less OP are:</p><p></p><p>1. Allow Initiative to be INT or WIS, instead of just DEX. Arguments can easily be made for both of those abilities instead of DEX.</p><p>2. Have DEX penalties apply even if wearing armor.</p><p>3. Allow DEX to assist in attack rolls with finesse or ranged weapons, but NOT add to damage.</p><p></p><p>These are all things my group do and decrease the important of DEX. It is still important, but not nearly as vital.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Not at all. It makes it more <em>focused</em>, certainly, but not misguided. I consider that a good thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The goal is not to make CON as much of a priority as you seem to believe. It is to remove the link between CON and bonus hit points.</p><p></p><p>As I addressed in the OP, CON is still important due to:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, this is the problem. Hit point bloat leads to damage bloat, which escalates to more hit points, and then more damage, etc. You can see this from 3E on (even some in 2E). No, I would not increase damage per attack because damage is not only caused by attacks. It is caused by other things such as falling, failed saves, etc. It is easier to adjust hit points, not damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Good. Hopefully we can have a worthwhile discussion on it (if you wish).</p><p></p><p>The problem is players feeling they <em>need</em> a high CON due to the need for hit points. Choosing to have a high CON for other reasons is fine, but hit points are abstract and having them linked to CON is a hold-over from the "meat" issue and prior editions.</p><p></p><p>Having proficiency in CON saves helps with everything else. Poison, cold, life drain, Concentration checks, etc. Now, CON saves are only default for three classes: Barbarian, Fighter, and Sorcerers. So, unless a PC takes the Resilient feat for CON, they might still feel the "need" to have a high CON for the other reasons noted. If they do, fine, but at least then we know it won't be just for hit points...</p><p></p><p>However, since CON has no linked skills, having it impact many other aspects of the game gives it back some balance IMO. Is it perfect, probably not! But it's a start.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, we could address every ability if you want! I'll start with what my games do (besides RAW uses):</p><p></p><p>Strength:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ranged weapons can be modified to include damage bonus (except if they have the loading property!)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">use variant encumbrance rules so STR 8 is only carrying 40 lbs.</li> </ul><p>Dexterity:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">does not ever add to weapon damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">negative bonuses apply to AC even when wearing armor</li> </ul><p>Constitution:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">does not ever add to hit points</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">adds additional "free" levels of exhaustion</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">used by Sorcerers for spellcasting instead of CHA</li> </ul><p>Intelligence:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">can be used for Initiative</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">grants additional proficiencies which can be used for languages and/or tools</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">used by Warlocks for spellcasting instead of CHA</li> </ul><p>Wisdom</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">can be used for Initiative</li> </ul><p>Charisma</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">used by Clerics for spellcasting instead of WIS</li> </ul><p>There's probably more, but that is all I can think of at the moment. Cheers!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 8832275, member: 6987520"] Fine, since you insist... The issue was players feeling they had to have a good CON score because they needed the hit points. Period. Sure, there are [I]other[/I] reasons to have a good CON score, but the issue was hit points, being abstract, shouldn't be one of them. So, unless you want to have fewer hit points, you need a way of removing CON bonus from hit points. The easiest way to do that is to use the maximum of the HD instead of rolling. It keeps hit points close to what typical CON bonuses are. Yes. Hit points are the primary reason not to dump CON overall. Casters have lower HD already, so having high CON is [I]doubly[/I] beneficial to them--both hit point bonuses [I]and[/I] boosts in Concentration checks. But, if you read my [I]other[/I] posts here, you would see I directly addressed aspects of CON such as Concentration checks and various saves. I never said it was less OP than CON, did I? This is NOT a pushback on CON, so much as divorcing it from hit points so it doesn't feel as essential to every PC. DEX, while great and yes, in my opinion OP, is not as essential. Here are the reasons: 1. Initiative is swingy and cyclical. DEX helps, but it is hardly essential for it. Once the order is established, you really only need to survive the first enemy turn, and then you go. 2. Having higher HP helps you survive, of course, as well as a better AC. However, there are many ways to take damage that has nothing to do with AC or DEX saves. HP helps in ALL those cases. Easy fixes to make DEX less OP are: 1. Allow Initiative to be INT or WIS, instead of just DEX. Arguments can easily be made for both of those abilities instead of DEX. 2. Have DEX penalties apply even if wearing armor. 3. Allow DEX to assist in attack rolls with finesse or ranged weapons, but NOT add to damage. These are all things my group do and decrease the important of DEX. It is still important, but not nearly as vital. Not at all. It makes it more [I]focused[/I], certainly, but not misguided. I consider that a good thing. The goal is not to make CON as much of a priority as you seem to believe. It is to remove the link between CON and bonus hit points. As I addressed in the OP, CON is still important due to: So, this is the problem. Hit point bloat leads to damage bloat, which escalates to more hit points, and then more damage, etc. You can see this from 3E on (even some in 2E). No, I would not increase damage per attack because damage is not only caused by attacks. It is caused by other things such as falling, failed saves, etc. It is easier to adjust hit points, not damage. Good. Hopefully we can have a worthwhile discussion on it (if you wish). The problem is players feeling they [I]need[/I] a high CON due to the need for hit points. Choosing to have a high CON for other reasons is fine, but hit points are abstract and having them linked to CON is a hold-over from the "meat" issue and prior editions. Having proficiency in CON saves helps with everything else. Poison, cold, life drain, Concentration checks, etc. Now, CON saves are only default for three classes: Barbarian, Fighter, and Sorcerers. So, unless a PC takes the Resilient feat for CON, they might still feel the "need" to have a high CON for the other reasons noted. If they do, fine, but at least then we know it won't be just for hit points... However, since CON has no linked skills, having it impact many other aspects of the game gives it back some balance IMO. Is it perfect, probably not! But it's a start. Sure, we could address every ability if you want! I'll start with what my games do (besides RAW uses): Strength: [LIST] [*]ranged weapons can be modified to include damage bonus (except if they have the loading property!) [*]use variant encumbrance rules so STR 8 is only carrying 40 lbs. [/LIST] Dexterity: [LIST] [*]does not ever add to weapon damage [*]negative bonuses apply to AC even when wearing armor [/LIST] Constitution: [LIST] [*]does not ever add to hit points [*]adds additional "free" levels of exhaustion [*]used by Sorcerers for spellcasting instead of CHA [/LIST] Intelligence: [LIST] [*]can be used for Initiative [*]grants additional proficiencies which can be used for languages and/or tools [*]used by Warlocks for spellcasting instead of CHA [/LIST] Wisdom [LIST] [*]can be used for Initiative [/LIST] Charisma [LIST] [*]used by Clerics for spellcasting instead of WIS [/LIST] There's probably more, but that is all I can think of at the moment. Cheers! [/QUOTE]
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Tired of using CON modifier as a bonus to HP? Here's a simple alternative...
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