To multi-class or not

[DarkMaster]

As for non-spellcaster multiclassing, the system works very well here, since many of the classes do not have high level class abilities that are in any way important or even close to the high level spellcasting ability of the spellcasters (the one thing that makes multiclassing bad for them).

For example, a Bar1/Rgr1/Ftr18 is quite obviously more powerful than a Ftr20.
You swap one feat for better skills, better saves (+3 Fort +2 Ref), fast movement, rage, track, favored enemy. The 2 additional fighter levels are not even close to what the multiclassing options offer.

That's obviously an effect of the aforementioned frontloadedness of the D&D classes and at this point pretty much an abuse of the system already, even though, just a slight one.

Bye
Thanee

Yes but most race cannot do it without taking XP penality, also I usually prefer B1/R2/F17, always like to get the rapid shot feat without having to take point blank feat

 

[Stalker0]

I'd say in Summary:

1) Fighter type multiclassing good.
2) Spellcasting multiclassing bad.
3) Ftr type X/Spellcaster 1 can be usefull if you go the buff spells route.
4) Spellcaster X/ Ftr type 1 can be nice for the good hd, fort save, BAB, and access to armors (if you want to go that route).

 

[DarkMaster]

The way 3rd Ed. does multiclassing does not lend itself well to mixing spellcasting classes with fighter types as far as holding ones own with an equivalent level single classed character. For this reason I do not like to take more than 1 level of a non- spellcasting class if I am playing a caster. A 6th level caster that does not have access to 3rd level spells is at a real disadvantage, but a 3rd/3rd fighter/ rogue is a powerful combo. I am currently playing an ex monk 1/ cleric6. I will still have access to 4th level cleric spells when I am 8th level so the multiclass does not overly restrict my spellcasting options. I tend not to like spellcasting prestige classes which do not give a caster level for each prestige char level for the same reasons. Not that these types of classes are not viable, or playable in any way, I just think that they would not be right for me.

The problem with arcane caster and fighter is that they are opposed in almost everything. a figther 5/Cleric 5 could handle the 10 fighter, because the cleric levels add to the fighter and provide him with spell. The character fights as a 8th level warrior and cast as a 5th cleric and he only loses 5hp compares to the 10 fighter. He also keep a strong Fortitude save and has 5 level of good Will save

The arcane class bring spell to the character but at a considerable cost on his fighting skill. The f5/w5 character end up fighting as 7 level with no or almost no armor and loses 15 hp compares to the 10 level fighter, for that he gains only 5th level arcane power. has only 5 level of good fortitude spell and 5 level of good Will save.

Noticing that the 3rd level spell for 10 th level character usually becomes utility spell , that makes the 5 level casting in arcane spell almost equivalent to the 5 level of divine casting.

In my campaigns I usually recommand to the wiz and sor not to multi-class unless they take a casting prestige class. Since usually people who wants to take 1 or 2 level in those classes do not take them at first level ( No advantage of taking at first, compared to others).

 

[two]

True Strike plus Power Attack with a twohanded weapon will probably ice the bard

Sure, the EK build can do it a lot better with Quickened True Strikes. Or worse spells.

Don't be silly... if the Sorcerer5/Fighter5 stands there trading buff spells with the Bard10, he will lose, simple as that. Bard has higher level spells, and better saves.

Round1:
S5F5 (wins initiative, is 10' away from bard): True strike, move 5'.
Bard10: Tumbles away, casts Mirror Image. Or tumbles away, dimension doors 200 feet away for space. etc.

Round2:
S5F5: Drat! Now what? Pull out my bow? etc.

C'mon. If you don't kill the bard in the first round, the bard has plenty of options -- more than the S5F5. That's all I was trying to say.

 

[Darklone]

Don't be silly... if the Sorcerer5/Fighter5 stands there trading buff spells with the Bard10, he will lose, simple as that. Bard has higher level spells, and better saves.

Round1:
S5F5 (wins initiative, is 10' away from bard): True strike, move 5'.
Bard10: Tumbles away, casts Mirror Image. Or tumbles away, dimension doors 200 feet away for space. etc.

Trading buff spells? Did I say that? naaah. DD is an idea, casting mirror image will probably not help too much against True Strike...

Round2:
S5F5: Drat! Now what? Pull out my bow? etc.

C'mon. If you don't kill the bard in the first round, the bard has plenty of options -- more than the S5F5. That's all I was trying to say.

That's ok. And I don't want to say the sor5/Ftr5 is a really valid build... just that it's not much weaker than a bard, especially not in melee combat. Or in ranged combat, he's got enough feats to specialise for that.

 

[Uller]

Round1:
S5F5 (wins initiative, is 10' away from bard): True strike, move 5'.
Bard10: Tumbles away, casts Mirror Image. Or tumbles away, dimension doors 200 feet away for space. etc.

Round2:
S5F5: Drat! Now what? Pull out my bow? etc.

Or he could pull out his wand of Enervation and take away a few of those pesky bard spells...

Seriously...one-on-one comparisons have never been an adequate way of comparing power level. Presumably, the game is more than one-on-one battles.

Bards run out of spells fairly quickly. A Ftr/Sorc will also, but has more hit points and feats and better armor.

As others have mentioned, it is better to lean one way or the other (more sorcerer or more fighter). If you want a character that is basically a fighter, maybe just take 2 or 4 levels of sorcerer and take spells like Shield, Exp Retreat, True Strike, etc. Blindness/Deafness can be very handy...No Somatic component. If you want to be a Battle Sorcerer that concentrates more on spell casting, just take 2 or 4 levels of fighter (depending on how important specialization is to you).

For instance, a Ftr2/Src8 could take spells like:

4th: Stoneskin, Polymorph Self
3rd: Displacement, Keen Edge, Fly, Vampiric Touch (for healing), Blink, Haste
2nd: Blindness/Deafness, See Invis (or Glitterdust), Mirror Image, bull's Str, Cat's Grace,
1st: Shield, Exp Retreat, True Strike,

However...I've found that if you want a fighter type that can go toe-to-toe with the monsters and sling some spells, it is better to multi as a cleric. Divine Favor, Divine Power, you get the point....

 

[the_bruiser]

The only decent ways to build multiclass spellcasters is to either pick up a prestige class dedicated to this purpose (Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight come to mind), or have only very few levels in the non-spellcasting class.

Bye
Thanee

This is correct. Further, the spellcaster in this situation should focus almost solely on utility and buff spells for reasons mentioned above (including but not limited to damage, saves, and SR penetration).

One alternative is to present to your DM a multi-class system we use in my campaigns. Basically, this is a method for creating custom Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster classes for ANY non-casting/casting combo that makes it much more viable! Using this, you may stil be A BIT underpowered, but you'll be very close and certainly not feel stupid for your decision. Here are the rules we use:

MULTI-CLASSED SPELLCASTERS
In the base rules, multi-classed spellcasters stink. To help make up for that, every multi-classed spellcaster has access to a custom prestige class with the characteristics outlined below.

Requirements
• Class A: The character must be able to cast third level spells as a cleric, shugenja, sorcerer, wizard, or similar “casting” class.
• Class B: The character must be at least fifth level fighter, ranger, rogue, or similar “non-casting” class.
• The player must come up with a cool name for his custom prestige class.

Base Statistics
• The character’s base attack progression (good, medium, bad) is the average of classes A and B, rounded down.
• The character’s hit die is the average of classes A and B, rounded down to nearest die.
• The character receives good saving throw bonuses for saves in which either class A or B has good bonuses, bad otherwise.
• The character has skill points equal to the average of classes A or B, rounded down to the nearest multiple of two. All class skills for Class A and Class B are class skills for this class.

Class Abilities
• Every level in the custom prestige class grants an additional spellcasting level in Class A. Every level in the custom prestige class grants the non-spellcasting abilities in an alternating fashion, starting with Class B.

Example #1
Bob is a 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric / 7th level redeemer (cool name, +5). The redeemer prestige class has the following properties:
• BAB progression: would be medium, the average of fighter (good) and cleric (medium), rounded down.
• Hit die: fighter d10, cleric d8, so redeemer is d8.
• Saves: Fighters have good fort, clerics have good fort and will, so redeemer has good fort and will saves, bad reflex.
• Skill Points: Fighters have two, clerics have two, so redeemer has two and access to both skill lists, no rounding needed.
• Spellcasting: A 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric / 7th level custom would cast as an 12th level cleric (5+7).
• Class features: A 5th level fighter / 5th level cleric / 7th level custom would have all the feats of a 9th level fighter (5+7/2 rounded up) and all non-spellcasting abilities (turning undead, etc.) of an 8th level cleric (5+7/2 rounded down).

Example #2
Bob is a 5th level ranger / 5th level wizard / 4th level nature’s fireball cannon (not acceptable, -10). The unacceptably-named prestige class would have had the following properties if the name had been acceptable:
• BAB progression: would be medium, the average of ranger (good) and wizard (bad), no rounding needed.
• Saves: Rangers have good fort and reflex, wizards have good will, so class has good bonuses in all saves.
• Skill Points: Rangers have six, wizards have two, so class has four and access to both skill lists, no rounding needed.
• Spellcasting: A 5th level ranger / 5th level wizard / 4th level custom would cast as a 9th level wizard (5+4).
• Class features: A 5th level ranger / 5th level wizard / 4th level custom would have all the feats, animal companions, etc. of a 7th level ranger (5+4/2) and all non-spellcasting abilities (bonus metamagic feats) of a 7th level wizard (5+4/2).