To Sneak Attack, or not to Sneak Attack that is the question...

[ConspiracyAngel]

A friend said this to me today:

“It’s funny… in D&D the only way you can be a truly effective social character is to either know how exactly to dagger someone, or know how to make magical music.”

And, for the most part I agree with his assessment. (Sorcerers are CHA based, but only get 2 skill pts and their only social class skill is Bluff).

As the discussion progressed, the direction took us to examine the Rogue character. To get to the point quickly, here is the problem. Rogues are the “do-most-anything” characters. But truly, there are several very different ways to be a Rogue. For example, you can be good at social interaction, or deception, or very nimble athlete, sneaking and/or stealing… frankly they have enough skill points to be good a combination of these things.

I disagree that a class as flexible as a Rogue must be stereotyped as all being Sneak Attack-ers. On the same note, I know many other kinds of characters (Rangers, Fighters, Monks, etc) that have dedicated themselves to the art of learning how to injure others skillfully and who might be Sneak Attack worthy… one day.

On this note, here is the opinion that I would like input on:

I think that the Sneak Attack for a Rogue should be optional. This is what I would propose: make Sneak Attack a skill. Make it (another) Rogue only class skill. Make the 1d6 accessible at 4 ranks, and each following d6 available at each even interval thereafter (6 ranks=2d6, 8 ranks=3d6). This system would allow Rogues, and Rogues ONLY to have Sneak Attack from the start… and other classes would have to build their ranks only to finally achieve their 1d6 Sneak Attack at 5th level.

This would allow Rogues to not have to endure that ever so common stereotype. To “reimburse” the Rogue, you would supply them one extra skill point (1 extra point x 4 at first level gives them enough to take Sneak Attack OR use it elsewhere as they see fit for their character). The skill plan above matches the Rogue character template for gaining Sneak Attack di. It also provides a buffer that prevents other classes from “out shining” the Rogue in this skill until much later in the game.

Is this an idea that you would consider?

 

[Crothian]

No, as I don't think it is needed. There are a lot of classes out there and I've seen more then a few that allow a character to be very social oriented without magic music or sneak attack.

 

[JustKim]

Everyone would take the skill unless they like to make bad choices, as sneak attack damage is far more valuable than any skill, especially when you already have 8/level. The Rogue class would not be affected.

Other classes would be affected. A lot of characters would invest in sneak attack as a cross-class skill for essentially free damage. I believe the able learner feat also lets you take cross-class skills as class skills, so with one feat any character will be as good at sneak attacking as a full Rogue. Or, if you disallow this somehow, a level 7 Fighter/1 Rogue can invest all his skill points in sneak attack and be as effective as a Rogue 8 instantly. Same with any prestige class that grants sneak attack, which by the way will be much easier to qualify for if sneak attack is granted through skill points. You'd have to redesign every Rogue option out there.

Additionally, what about skill focus? What about spells and magic items that raise skills? You not only break the skill mechanic with a skill that requires no checks and has no key attribute, to balance it you'll have to exclude a mess of core options to balance it out. In the end it's not even a skill.

 

[EricNoah]

I don't know that I'd do it as a skill, but maybe I'd allow a class ability swap of some kind. Perhaps allow the rogue to have Bardic Knowledge instead of Sneak Attack or something along those lines, and maybe then give Leadership as a bonus feat at an appropriate level. Sneak attack's a pretty powerful ability, and I don't think I'd swap it into another class -- I'd make a character take rogue levels to get it. But if a rogue wanted to do without, or take a slower or later progression, I'd find a compromise.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hi ConspiracyAngel

What about the NPC classes: Expert and Aristocrat.
I think what you are looking for is an expert - excellent skill points with a set of any ten skills.

I've had one player take levels in Expert because of the reasons you highlight above - he was useless with a weapon and did not deserve/want to have sneak attack. Another played an aristocrat to good effect. I recommend both to feel the hole you believe is there.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[VoiceOfReason?]

Instead of making it a skill, perhaps replace the rogue's SA with short lists of bonus feats like the 3.5 monk gets, and a rogue only bonus feat (which must be taken with one of these bonus feats) that increases SA+1d6. Alternate abilities might include skill focus feats, a 32 lb. block of cheese, feats like diplomatic or cosmopolitan, whatever you think is relavant, thus allowing the option of lowered or nonexistant sneak attack for other, more versatile abilities.

I found Outsiders work great for this purpose too, with 8+int skill points/lvl, d8 hp, fighter BA, great saves, and most if not all social skills as class skills. I played a Succubus Mortal Hunter (PrC from BoVD) in a high level game (I joined when the group was about 16-18, but they had no socially adept characters and the DM urged me to make one). She was stellar, one of my favorite characters to date; she held her own in combat, but prefferred to get around it (the encounter xp for singlehandedly 'dealing with' 3 agressive Glabrezu and a handfull of Vrocks was sweeet).
Big problem with playing outsiders is that they generally come with a hefty level adjustment that often simply isn't worth it.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Allow some non-core sources from, well, almost anywhere.

Just glancing to my nearby bookshelf, I see BESM d20, Unearthed Arcana, Arcana Unearthed, OGL Steampunk, d20 Modern, Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and the Rokugan Campaign Setting. All seven have classes that can do what you're talking about - Steampunk and Modern have 2-3 each. The Marshal from the D&D Miniatures Handbook has some social graces in a more combative package, as does the Oriental Adventures/Rokugan Samurai. I have more non-core books with social skill characters than not!

Modern's Charismatic, Smart and Dedicated heroes are all available free in the Modern SRD, so all you have to do is print them out.

 

[Imret]

Agreed with many above.

I don't think it should be a skill, but neither should sneak attack be mandatory for the new, 3.x, "I'm not a thief what are you talking about" rogue. Alternate abilities would go well.

Hmmmm, bardic knowledge....a chance to get rid of the bard class....

 

[Shieldhaven]

Does the phenomenon that you observe - "You have to be a rogue or bard to be a socialite" - represent a need to change the rogue and bard, or a need to change (at least offer a few more options to) everyone else?

I hold that the latter is the case.

 

[reanjr]

I really like that idea. There's only one thing I'm wondering about. It is my understanding that once a class skill, always a class skill in terms of max ranks (I don't do it like this, but I've heard it's the RAW). So, by taking a level in Rogue, and then levels in Fighter, dumping skill points in Sneak Attack each level, you would have a Fighter with a Rogue's Sneak Attack progression. It would cost more skill points, but it still seems over the top.

I'm not sure how one would fix this.

Also, would Skill Focus work with it?